Subrail Extentions Idea

trentfromtoledo said:
I am only chiming in to say: ALL OTHERS READING. DO NOT FOLLOW DOWN THIS PATH. Proper subrail extensions are the best route and only way I would do it and I am betting MOST mechanics will say the same.

There really aint nothing to talk about here, now is there?? :p

TFT
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You're entirely correct here.

The issue I had was that I had an Olhausen. Good table, but I didn't want to invest a ton of time and $ into a furniture grade table. You may have read my pocket rattle fix thread, it's here on AZ. Basically I used thicker neoprene facings and sanded them on a table saw at the correct compound angle to fix the mismatched angles that came on it.

It's not 100% perfect, but before it was terrible, basically unplayable. This made it 95% perfect and for me personally that was good enough for a furniture grade table without the investment of a mechanic or a huge time investment learning it myself. If I had had a GC or something then yes, do it right or not at all, but there can be middle ground. Not the best by any means but there are situations where it might make sense.

I would be foolish to pay money to get the table set up with proper subrail extensions when the most I can get out of it is $1K if I wanted to sell. A nicer table, sure do it right all the way.
 
boogieman said:
You're entirely correct here.

The issue I had was that I had an Olhausen. Good table, but I didn't want to invest a ton of time and $ into a furniture grade table. You may have read my pocket rattle fix thread, it's here on AZ. Basically I used thicker neoprene facings and sanded them on a table saw at the correct compound angle to fix the mismatched angles that came on it.

It's not 100% perfect, but before it was terrible, basically unplayable. This made it 95% perfect and for me personally that was good enough for a furniture grade table without the investment of a mechanic or a huge time investment learning it myself. If I had had a GC or something then yes, do it right or not at all, but there can be middle ground. Not the best by any means but there are situations where it might make sense.

I would be foolish to pay money to get the table set up with proper subrail extensions when the most I can get out of it is $1K if I wanted to sell. A nicer table, sure do it right all the way.
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These are all just luxury items, we're lucky enough to have a table and a place to put them.

We're also lucky enough to have the choice as to how much we invest in it. We're just plain lucky.
 
boogieman said:
I would be foolish to pay money to get the table set up with proper subrail extensions when the most I can get out of it is $1K if I wanted to sell. A nicer table, sure do it right all the way.
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Nailed it... and why I didn't the burn the time finding a professional resource and money I could have on mine.

Has the adventure taken longer because of the decision...?..., yes definitely. However, I've gone way off the rails of just a subrail extension. All in all, I'm glad a diy'd it. At the very least, I managed to justify buying a new miter saw :)
 
The_JV said:
Nailed it... and why I didn't the burn the time finding a professional resource and money I could have on mine.

Has the adventure taken longer because of the decision...?..., yes definitely. However, I've gone way off the rails of just a subrail extension. All in all, I'm glad a diy'd it. At the very least, I managed to justify buying a new miter saw :)
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Thing of it is, I think in both our cases, having someone come in to our houses and doing what everyone refers to as the right way was not available anyway. The idea of doing it right is only an option, if it's an option.

You've got the skills and patience to do go full tilt and it looks like it will be an excellent table when you get it back together.

Remains to be seen what I'll end up with but to be honest, I'm probably not a good enough player to tell the difference between one mechanics extensions and another's. I just want tougher pockets and that, I think I'll get. Given the angles staying where they are they just might end up too tough once the cloth wears in.:)
 
One thing the local mechanic said to me when I questioned using hard facings as the extension was he'd bet if I played on one of the tables he did I wouldn't know the difference. I had to answer that he may be right about that. If he did a good job of it, I kind of doubt that I would.
 
dendweller said:
One thing the local mechanic said to me when I questioned using hard facings as the extension was he'd bet if I played on one of the tables he did I wouldn't know the difference. I had to answer that he may be right about that. If he did a good job of it, I kind of doubt that I would.
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I would have been surprised if he said the difference would be quite noticable and gamble to if you'd like it.
 
The_JV said:
I would have been surprised if he said the difference would be quite noticable and gamble to if you'd like it.
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True, proof is in the pudding I guess. I will say, a pretty strong player I've know for 20 years had him set up his table and spoke highly of the work he did.
 
When I started this post I was really interested in whether or not someone may have some experience with this method and might say that this or that will go wrong. Far as I can tell, that really hasn't happened and I do appreciate all the input.
 
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Just to confirm: you are using a hard rubber (70A+?) in place of the plywood, and using a new set of cushions, cut to the proper length, then installing a softer rubber facing (60A max?).

If so, I don't see why you wouldn't also correct the pocket angles. The rubber will sand similarly to wood, but definitely easier than a hard plywood.

In regards to playability, I would challenge ANYONE to note a difference between going this route, and using wood for the sub-rail extensions.

Let's think about this for a second... The part of the pocket that has an effect on play is the front portion. In this case, the front portion of the pocket will be the same, regardless of which sub-rail extension material is used. The sub-rail material is generally behind the shelf of the pocket. Once a ball hits back there, it's already 'pocketed'.

So, for all of the nay-sayers, suggesting that the pockets will play poorly: you don't know what you are talking about.


That said, for my sub-rail extensions: I prefer to use poplar, with 3/16" facings. I orient the end-grain such that it does not see force from ball impacts. And, the thicker facing prevents damage to the underlying wood. My reasoning for using poplar is that it is the same density and hardness as the rest of the rail. This makes my work a true extension of the preexisting, which should maintain similar resonance (not that it's all that important - just like swapping wood for hard rubber).
 
bradsh98 said:
Just to confirm: you are using a hard rubber (70A+?) in place of the plywood, and using a new set of cushions, cut to the proper length, then installing a softer rubber facing (60A max?).

If so, I don't see why you wouldn't also correct the pocket angles. The rubber will sand similarly to wood, but definitely easier than a hard plywood.

In regards to playability, I would challenge ANYONE to note a difference between going this route, and using wood for the sub-rail extensions.

Let's think about this for a second... The part of the pocket that has an effect on play is the front portion. In this case, the front portion of the pocket will be the same, regardless of which sub-rail extension material is used. The sub-rail material is generally behind the shelf of the pocket. Once a ball hits back there, it's already 'pocketed'.

So, for all of the nay-sayers, suggesting that the pockets will play poorly: you don't know what you are talking about.


That said, for my sub-rail extensions: I prefer to use poplar, with 3/16" facings. I orient the end-grain such that it does not see force from ball impacts. And, the thicker facing prevents damage to the underlying wood. My reasoning for using poplar is that it is the same density and hardness as the rest of the rail. This makes my work a true extension of the preexisting, which should maintain similar resonance (not that it's all that important - just like swapping wood for hard rubber).
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Thanks for your input. Good stuff.

I have a question regarding the comment above highlighted in red. Wouldn't the OP's pocket angles need to be corrected for this to be true? In theory, a wider pocket angle exposes more of the pocket to the ball. The OP said his angles are 142°-143°. Would that be wide enough to rattle a ball fairly deep in the pocket? Deep enough for the subrail portion of the pocket to come into play? The OP's end goal is to make his pockets play "tougher" but not necessarily tighter than the current 4.5". Perhaps a better solution would be to install 1/4" facings and changing the pocket angle using the sanding method discussed in another thread.
 
rexus31 said:
Thanks for your input. Good stuff.

I have a question regarding the comment above highlighted in red. Wouldn't the OP's pocket angles need to be corrected for this to be true? In theory, a wider pocket angle exposes more of the pocket to the ball. The OP said his angles are 142°-143°. Would that be wide enough to rattle a ball fairly deep in the pocket? Deep enough for the subrail portion of the pocket to come into play? The OP's end goal is to make his pockets play "tougher" but not necessarily tighter than the current 4.5". Perhaps a better solution would be to install 1/4" facings and changing the pocket angle using the sanding method discussed in another thread.
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Sure, if it's a big pocket... But he has a Gold Crown. If you shrink the pocket down to 4.5", the shelf is quite shallow, regardless of angle.

To get a tough playing pocket on a Gold Crown, I always cut the downward angle to 12 degrees. That's about as shallow an angle as I like to go. I also always cut the opening angles to 141 degrees. I like consistency, and I HATE the idea that people want to change these pocket angles... I wish that there were a set standard that all manufacturers followed.. But, there isn't...

The biggest change that I make, is the hardness of pocket facing. Want it tougher, go softer. Want it easier, go harder.
 
bradsh98 said:
Sure, if it's a big pocket... But he has a Gold Crown. If you shrink the pocket down to 4.5", the shelf is quite shallow, regardless of angle.

To get a tough playing pocket on a Gold Crown, I always cut the downward angle to 12 degrees. That's about as shallow an angle as I like to go. I also always cut the opening angles to 141 degrees. I like consistency, and I HATE the idea that people want to change these pocket angles... I wish that there were a set standard that all manufacturers followed.. But, there isn't...

The biggest change that I make, is the hardness of pocket facing. Want it tougher, go softer. Want it easier, go harder.
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Thanks for the info, Geoff!

I think people get into changing angles as the pockets get tighter. A 4" pocket cut to 141° is pretty brutal. I think mechanics are cutting pockets that tight at 139°-140°.
 
bradsh98 said:
Just to confirm: you are using a hard rubber (70A+?) in place of the plywood, and using a new set of cushions, cut to the proper length, then installing a softer rubber facing (60A max?).

If so, I don't see why you wouldn't also correct the pocket angles. The rubber will sand similarly to wood, but definitely easier than a hard plywood.

In regards to playability, I would challenge ANYONE to note a difference between going this route, and using wood for the sub-rail extensions.

Let's think about this for a second... The part of the pocket that has an effect on play is the front portion. In this case, the front portion of the pocket will be the same, regardless of which sub-rail extension material is used. The sub-rail material is generally behind the shelf of the pocket. Once a ball hits back there, it's already 'pocketed'.

So, for all of the nay-sayers, suggesting that the pockets will play poorly: you don't know what you are talking about.


That said, for my sub-rail extensions: I prefer to use poplar, with 3/16" facings. I orient the end-grain such that it does not see force from ball impacts. And, the thicker facing prevents damage to the underlying wood. My reasoning for using poplar is that it is the same density and hardness as the rest of the rail. This makes my work a true extension of the preexisting, which should maintain similar resonance (not that it's all that important - just like swapping wood for hard rubber).
Click to expand...
The facings I was ordering were 2 sets of 1/4 inch at 75, one set 1/4 inch at 60.

Far as the angles go, I want them to play tougher. There pretty accepting at this point. Given the lack of shelf, I though leaving them at 142-143 would probably be worth a try.
 
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