Super Expo Open Amateur first prize still only $5,000?

T

The Kid

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This event has around 800 to 1,000 entries at $75 a pop.
That equals around $75,000 in the prize fund(that is without any money added.)
How is it possible that the first prize is only $5,000.That is less than 10%.
It should be at least $15,000.
Let's say the organizers take out one third of the total money $25,000,which would be criminal,that still leaves $50,000.
First place should still be about 30% which is $15,000.
What is going on with this event,every year it gets bigger but the prize money doesn't.
 
A friend of mine has won it twice, and I wondered the same thing. If there is 800 players, are they paying out 200 spots (25%)? I would assume this adds up. I dont know how deep they pay, but it seems that a tourney like this would have to pay deep in order to keep people coming back. I dont think the intent is to pay only the select few players that keep coming back and winning/placing really high. If they bumped the prize to 15,000 like you mentioned, it would seem that the "killer" amatuers would return all the time. This year, they have added that open event. 1 of 64 will win $5,000 rather than 1 of 800 or more.

NEW EVENT!!
Valley OPEN Players Championship
How good do you think you really are? Take your best shot in this 64 player - $5000 first place - challenging event. The event is open to anyone and everyone who wants to play. Pros and amateurs. Men and women. 9 Ball played on VALLEY's newest bar table design, the GREAT EIGHT bar table.


FORMAT: 9-ball, races to 7, best 2 out of 3 sets
PRIZE FUND: $5000 first place prize money, based on 64 players.
FIELD: 64 players START TIME:
Thursday, March 25th 7:00 pm
ENTRY FEE: $300.00 REGISTRATION:
Wednesday, March 24th 6:00pm (tentative)
Thursday, March 25th 8:30am

As long as it payouts out deep enuff, and that they arent 'raping' the players, then it is my opinion that if you are "truely" and amatuer that $5000 is enuff of a payout for a win. If it got any higher, it would make it hard for pros to not enter, since it would pay more/equal to some of their tourneys.


IMO
 
The Kid said:
This event has around 800 to 1,000 entries at $75 a pop.
That equals around $75,000 in the prize fund(that is without any money added.)
How is it possible that the first prize is only $5,000.That is less than 10%.
It should be at least $15,000.
Let's say the organizers take out one third of the total money $25,000,which would be criminal,that still leaves $50,000.
First place should still be about 30% which is $15,000.
What is going on with this event,every year it gets bigger but the prize money doesn't.
Click to expand...

A lot of expenses have to come out of the tournament entry fees. This is not a local pool room, where the tables are there all of the time. All of those table have to be brought in, set up for 4 day and then removed. This is an expensive proposition. They also have to pay rent for the convention center and pay their staff. These things are not paid for totally out of the entry fees, but a substantial portion must.
Also, keep in mind, as a player, you do not have to pay the daily entry into the expo.

Another factor that has to be considered when determining first place money, is how far down the field is paid. I don't have the figures, but IIRC, at the Expo a substantial percentage of the field is paid. That would lower the prize money left for the top spots.

The organizers are also allowed to make some profit on this ordeal. If they didn't, there would be no expo.

If you don't like the payout amounts, at the Expo or any other tournament, may I suggest, you don't enter. :rolleyes:
These people are not doing all this hard work for your personal pleasure, and profit. There has to be a little give and take. :D
 
Also consider that with a $75 entry and a 1st place of 5K that is a 6666% return on investment. Gee Whiz, that's better than Martha Stewart did :D
 
I forgot a few other expenses, to put on the Expo and the tournaments.

I'm sure there is a heafty insurance bill and incuded in the Hopkins staff are security people, as well as all the people needed to set up the pro arenas. The convention center just rents the shell. Hopkins has to get the people to bring in and set up all the bleachers and vip seating, as well as electricians to hook up all those lights above every table, in both the pro and amateur arenas.

I'm sure I'm still missing many things. The list of expenses just goes on and on. This is not a matter of getting 20 friends together at your local pool room for an evening tournament. It is a very complicated matter.
 
The Kid said:
This event has around 800 to 1,000 entries at $75 a pop.
That equals around $75,000 in the prize fund(that is without any money added.)
How is it possible that the first prize is only $5,000.That is less than 10%.
It should be at least $15,000.
Let's say the organizers take out one third of the total money $25,000,which would be criminal,that still leaves $50,000.
First place should still be about 30% which is $15,000.
What is going on with this event,every year it gets bigger but the prize money doesn't.
Click to expand...
I did an article on the tournament in 2001, and have the results and prize winnings of the final 16 players;

Amateur Open Players Championship.
800 + players
1st place…$5000.00…Darren Everett
2nd place…$2000.00…Jason Kirkwood
3rd place…$1500.00…Kim Bennett
4th place…$1500.00…Chris Loar
5th place…$1000.00…Mike Miller
6th place…$1000.00…Fred Wenker
7th place…$1000.00…Tom Jaggers
8th place…$…1000.00…Gary Horner
9th place…$750.00…Robert Madenjian
10th place…$750.00…Kevin Clark
11th place…$750.00…Mike Painter
12th place…$750.00…Greg Canby
13th place…$750.00…Jerry Hager
14th place…$750.00…Jeremy Melber
15th place…$750.00…Bobby Legg
16th place…$750.00…Shane Morrow

This totals $20,000 so far. Assuming that they paid 128 out of the field of 800+, and used the same formula for moving to the next level of payment... there would be it would pay an additional $8000- for 17-32, $12,000- for 33-64, and $18,000 for 65-128. That brings the total so far to $58,000. If there was 800+ players and the entry is $75-, that brings the total entry fees paid to $60,000 +.

Bear in mind that;
I don't know the exact number of participants.
I don't know how much of the field they paid (just guessing).
There are expenses associated with this tournament (tables, rent of exhibtion center, employees, office, advertising, website, insurance, etc.)

If the scenario I presented above is close to correct, then it sounds fine to me.
 
Ted Harris said:
I did an article on the tournament in 2001, and have the results and prize winnings of the final 16 players;

Amateur Open Players Championship.
800 + players
1st place…$5000.00…Darren Everett
2nd place…$2000.00…Jason Kirkwood
3rd place…$1500.00…Kim Bennett
4th place…$1500.00…Chris Loar
5th place…$1000.00…Mike Miller
6th place…$1000.00…Fred Wenker
7th place…$1000.00…Tom Jaggers
8th place…$…1000.00…Gary Horner
9th place…$750.00…Robert Madenjian
10th place…$750.00…Kevin Clark
11th place…$750.00…Mike Painter
12th place…$750.00…Greg Canby
13th place…$750.00…Jerry Hager
14th place…$750.00…Jeremy Melber
15th place…$750.00…Bobby Legg
16th place…$750.00…Shane Morrow

This totals $20,000 so far. Assuming that they paid 128 out of the field of 800+, and used the same formula for moving to the next level of payment... there would be it would pay an additional $8000- for 17-32, $12,000- for 33-64, and $18,000 for 65-128. That brings the total so far to $58,000. If there was 800+ players and the entry is $75-, that brings the total entry fees paid to $60,000 +.

Bear in mind that;
I don't know the exact number of participants.
I don't know how much of the field they paid (just guessing).
There are expenses associated with this tournament (tables, rent of exhibtion center, employees, office, advertising, website, insurance, etc.)

If the scenario I presented above is close to correct, then it sounds fine to me.
Click to expand...


If thats the way the payout went, then nobody has anything to really complain about. Most tournaments pay most of their money to first through third. The way they paid out there was no real drop off after third. I wish there were more tournaments like this.

Kent Mc.
 
Perk said:
A friend of mine has won it twice

Hey Perk,

I spoke with Jason at the Midwest Expo. He told me Allen Hopkins invited him NOT to come to this years tournament. I lost to Jason for 5 - 8 (I think, I'm too close to 60 to remember for sure) last year. He plays very well! Nice guy as well!

The BCA Masters gets 220 +/- @ $175 ea and pays $7k to win. I was 17 - 24 again last year. I got $400! The BCA Open gets 2000 +/- @ $125. They payed $1200 for 17 - 24 and $7000 to win! I guess its all relative. $5000 to win Allen's event is too low. All the other tournies are double elimination. Allen's is single. It is a much more difficult format.
Click to expand...
 
JPB said:
Last I looked first place in an AMATEUR tournament should pay $0. ;-)
Click to expand...

Hey JPB,

Well written. Its the truth. The BCA determines who a "pro" player is. It is a rediculous job description. I'm a full member of the UPA. I play in both "Pro" and "Amateur" events. I do not make my living playing pool. I finish in the top ten percent of most events I enter. I've never won a "Pro" event. I've won "amateur" events. Confused?? So am I!
 
cardiac kid said:
Perk said:
A friend of mine has won it twice

Hey Perk,

I spoke with Jason at the Midwest Expo. He told me Allen Hopkins invited him NOT to come to this years tournament. I lost to Jason for 5 - 8 (I think, I'm too close to 60 to remember for sure) last year. He plays very well! Nice guy as well!
Click to expand...

He is a nice guy and definately plays well. Sounds like you play pretty good also, finishing top 8 at VF and placing high in the BCA Masters tourney. Good Luck this year if you are playing at VF.
Click to expand...
 
The Kid said:
This event has around 800 to 1,000 entries at $75 a pop.
Click to expand...

The entry fee is not $75. The entry fee is actually $50. The other $25 goes to the player's Expo pass.

So now redo the math and take into consideration the rental and set up of 120 Diamond Smart tables that you don't have to feed quarters to. They're all open.

Barbara
 
Hi Barbara,

I did do the math. Besides the 900 in the Open 9 Ball, there are 250 players in the seniors, about 250 in the womens, I'm not sure about the juniors. Lets say about 100. Allen also ran the TAP Tournament last year with 200 plus separate entries. If we say roughly 1500 entries at an average of $25, thats thirty seventy fifty large. It doesn't cost that much to rent 120 tables for a week. Did you count the income from the "challenge" tables downstairs? They are going twenty four hours a day for five days at a dollar a game! With the number of rooms booked at the hotel by the players, retailers and visitors, the expo halls must be either free or very minimal cost. If you count display booth rentals, there is lots of profit built in. Enough to reward the top players with higher payouts, percentage wise. You may also calculate the number of players who win one or two matches and must stay two nights without cashing. Others, like myself, stayed until Sunday. I made some profit, but with 1000 entries, not enough!

Regardless, without Allen and Dawn's efforts, there would be NO billiard event. I accepted the payout I received last year and the years before. I'm returning this year. I'm also looking at making reservations for next years event now! Yes, I'm a typical player who likes to bitch. No noise, no grease!
 
Barbara said:
The entry fee is not $75. The entry fee is actually $50. The other $25 goes to the player's Expo pass.

So now redo the math and take into consideration the rental and set up of 120 Diamond Smart tables that you don't have to feed quarters to. They're all open.

Barbara
Click to expand...
Barbara,
Thanks for clarifying that. I was gonna call Dawn and ask her about it, but I know she is so busy now getting ready that I did not want to bother her. Do you know how much of the field gets paid?
 
Ted Harris said:
Barbara,
Thanks for clarifying that. I was gonna call Dawn and ask her about it, but I know she is so busy now getting ready that I did not want to bother her. Do you know how much of the field gets paid?
Click to expand...


Last year they paid 128. I think it was $500. I finished tied for 129th :(

Shayne
 
Shayne said:
Last year they paid 128. I think it was $500. I finished tied for 129th :(

Shayne
Click to expand...

Hi Shayne,

I believe $50 may be more like it. Most events, even the DCC payed the top quarter of the field. If they had short entries, I could see a limited payout. In the past, Allen intentionally limited the field to about 900. Time was the limiting factor. This year, with the extra hours on Thursday, I believe a full field of 1024 will be accepted. You do the math!

I decided to play in the Seniors this year. Too many of you great young players to go through. I made money last year. If I had won one less match, I would have broken even for the four days. As it was, I won my 64 player bracket and 6 matches total. Good luck to you this year and to all AZ posters!
 
Allen is entitled to make a decent profit from this event in my opinion. That many pool players in one building is just asking for major migraines. Just planning and running a 2 day tournament is a pain in the a?? Any one willing to put up with all the time and headaches involved in a tournament this size should be getting thank you's from the players, not complaints. I don't know any one who wants to work for free, do you? Sam
 
satman said:
Allen is entitled to make a decent profit from this event in my opinion. That many pool players in one building is just asking for major migraines. Just planning and running a 2 day tournament is a pain in the a?? Any one willing to put up with all the time and headaches involved in a tournament this size should be getting thank you's from the players, not complaints. I don't know any one who wants to work for free, do you? Sam
Click to expand...

I would agree with this for a couple of reasons..
1 - where can you find the caliber of players that come here even if they don't play any tourney
2 - the place is all night action, you do not even have to leave the hotel
3 - where, as a consumer, do you have the oppertunity to handle merchandise like here.. ever handle a real Bushka? No, but you probably could here, want to see a Justis case in person.. here is a good place to see one, on and on.. its pools largest indoor flea market. Buying and selling here has its perks
4 - the action.. wait did I say that already...
5 - How many 500 player tournaments are there a year?

Joe
 
satman said:
Allen is entitled to make a decent profit from this event in my opinion. That many pool players in one building is just asking for major migraines. Just planning and running a 2 day tournament is a pain in the a?? Any one willing to put up with all the time and headaches involved in a tournament this size should be getting thank you's from the players, not complaints. I don't know any one who wants to work for free, do you? Sam
Click to expand...

Sam,

We staffers at the Amateur Tournament desk do not work for free. And although it may look like a headache to you, I give credit to all the players in all the events who display extreme patience at these events that help them run so smoothly. Plus, having the Diamond Smart tables to play on takes out 99% of the complaints that we usually hear.

Here's to the players!!

Barbara
 
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