Test question for all Billiards Technicians

realkingcobra

realkingcobra

Well-known member
Silver Member
3 piece slate 9ft table, what ever kind of table you want it to be. You've already leveled the slates and are ready to seam them. You notice that on one of the seams...between the outside of the slate to the middle of the slate on one have of the seam the slates don't quit match up. The outside seams are flush to each other and the center seams are flush...be between the center to the outsde edge of slate...the seams are off. The center slate kind of either dips a little...or the head slate seems to be raised a little high...either way...there's a lip. If you try to raise the center slate to match the end slate...you end up throwing off the seams in the center. Maybe you thought of drilling a hole in the center of the high side of the end slate to place a slate screw in order to pull down the high side of the slate to flush it up with the center slate...but there's no cross member to mount a slate screw to. What do you do to fix the problem? Yes, the slates have been leveled to perfection, it's just that one area that's off.

I'd be interested to see your answers.

Glen
 
Thats easy...some thing is wrong...you are missing cross members (never seen a nine footer without them)...you have a bad slate(still within mfg tollerances) or you have not matched the slates from the mill correctly....
just shim all the way across to match ...Terry
 
Hmmm...Diamond 9ft Professionals don't have cross members...they only have 3 timberstrands running the length of the table and 1 across each end...so you couln't simm the slate on one of these tables...now what? You're in the buyers house and he's watching what your doing...so you still have to come up with a fix that'll convince the owner that you know what you're doing...to fix the problem. He don't want to hear that the slates don't match up perfectly...he wants it fixed.
 
and besides that, even if there was a cross member to shim againt...the second you raise the low slate to level...it'll raise the center slate above the end slate in the center of the table...then you'll have miss matched seams in the middle of the slate. And yes, the slates are layed out right matching the grind marks from head to foot...so that's not the problem. In fact, there's no other problems with the slates...other than in that one spot of about 18 inches or so between the outside of the slate and the center of the slates that just don't quit line up.
 
I know every billiards technician that's set up a couple of hundred tables or more has encountered this same problem at least once or twice in the past. I've encountered it at least a couple of dozen times in my 23 years as a technician.
 
If you guys can't figure out how to fix the problem, sooner or later I'll give you the answer as to how to fix this problem the next time you encounter it.
 
realkingcobra said:
If you guys can't figure out how to fix the problem, sooner or later I'll give you the answer as to how to fix this problem the next time you encounter it.
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This is kind of a difficult question to answer in words (better by drawing). You have approximately thirds to most slate. Meaning that your outside anchor screws are the origin and going across the slate seams you have 1/3, 2/3, and 3/3 or 1/3 from the other direction. If what you are stating is that @ 1/3 it is off but 2/3 (half or center) is fine as well as 3/3. Then you need to determine how much of the high lip is exposed. You can either do this by dial indicator if its in the shop or on sight by using either fine powder Plaster of Paris or water. Wet the seam or push the powder into and around the seam. Now drag a straight edge on an angle (maybe 30 degrees) from one side across the seam vertically to the other side. This should give you a better visual to the milling quality of the slate. I usually will then trace the variances in pencil and wipe off the slate. If the dips are @ the seams only, you can usually get away with waxing that specific area. Or maybe a flex (explain later). I'm not sure what you mean by not being able to drill and anchor a screw because of no stretcher? You can always pull a Gandy and shoot down at an angle to anchor the middles even and use wedges at 1/3 or 3/3 to bring flush. But we all (at least should) know that equal and opposite reactions exist. Meaning that if you flex slate it will move in other areas as well, and differently across anchored areas. Meaning that If I were to place a wedge at the absolute outside edge of the slate (outside the anchor screw) and were to tighten the screw it would bring the center seam down (flex). Some seams can be fixed, compensated or brought to acceptable through this process alone (you might have to set the middles). The last resort besides bringing the slate back to the shop, setting it on your extremely large and very expensive granite inspection block and painstakingly hand stroke sanding it to a mirrored perfection, would be to make spanners (either out or wood or preferably metal). These would take the place of a stretcher if there isn't one. They are approximately 5-6 in. in length and about 2 in. wide about 14 in. thick. with two pre tapped holes 5/16 -18 preferably about 3 in. apart. This will be anchored on the underside of the slate by the two screws that you will have to drill out holes in the slate and countersink at each side. You can the play with the seam that way and get to where you need to be. But don't forget to fill the holes. A trick that my father taught me was to take a nickel and push down while dragging across the seams briskly. Sometimes our fingers are cold or it gets late in the day and we loose our spider senses. If you can't feel it catch the high edge you should be able to hear it. Thank you I hope this helps. (and please to all who see this Bondo is not made for seam work).
 
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Naaa...that's like trying to build an ocean liner to have somewhere to store your rubber raft...lol and, most of the billiards technicians I know of use bondo to seam slates, to avoid chipping the slates when taking them apart all you have to do is cut the seam first with a razor knife and they come apart just fine. Plaster if not mixed right chips apart and when the table gets vacuumed the chips get redistributed elsewhere under the cloth to create bumps. Wax is okay in the seams...but not as a filler because it's to soft.

There's a real simple fix to this problem, and if I have to provide the answer to it...it'll make you scratch your head and laugh...but you'll remember it the rest of your life...as a billiards technician.
 
Just for information purposes, I've put broken slates back together that have been broken in half from end to end and side to side with the only thing holding them together being super glue and bondo, then handled the slates just like any other slates that have never been broken. We're talking 7 & 8 foot one piece bar slates as well as 3 piece slates up to the size of 6 x 12 x 1 1/2 in snooker slates. :)
 
realkingcobra said:
Naaa...that's like trying to build an ocean liner to have somewhere to store your rubber raft...lol and, most of the billiards technicians I know of use bondo to seam slates, to avoid chipping the slates when taking them apart all you have to do is cut the seam first with a razor knife and they come apart just fine. Plaster if not mixed right chips apart and when the table gets vacuumed the chips get redistributed elsewhere under the cloth to create bumps. Wax is okay in the seams...but not as a filler because it's to soft.

There's a real simple fix to this problem, and if I have to provide the answer to it...it'll make you scratch your head and laugh...but you'll remember it the rest of your life...as a billiards technician.
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'm a bit confused about what you are trying to say here. These are the reasons why I usually don't post on sites. Someone always has a better way (opinion) of doing things. I am a third generation mechanic. I have worked on thousands of tables. I take pride in doing excellent work by any standards. Maybe I should take time in between huffs of contact cement to have an occasional Epiphany, but it seems that I'm just too busy doing tables. It appears that today is Mon. as a matter of fact I am in between jobs right now and must get going so I'll get to the point. First off over the hundreds of tables that I've serviced with Bondo on them not much good has come from it, and yes I score the seams. The only place I feel Bondo has a part is in the corner blocks of antiques for transition. You seem rather excited about this technique or theory. Maybe you should write a book and enlighten us all. You could make a fortune, and then again maybe not. The methods that I use are tried and true. They are used with longevity in mind. I receive maybe a call back a year but it is usually table failure. I respect the fact that you are a mechanic (hopefully a respectable one) and I wish you good fortune. I hope that your technique doesn't involve Bondo and wax paper L.O.L. As far as the wax and plaster. They have they're own place on a table. I took for granted that you would understand what I meant by filling a lip with wax. They're is also a way to make plaster work perfectly as a filler, but I feel I must keep it a close kept secret for job security reasons L.O.L. Yeah if done improperly it could be vacuumed up and move all over, but if your real good you can cut the cloth and pull out each piece individually and them stitch it back up where its not even noticeable....still L.ingO.L. As far as broken slate goes. The super glue or cyanoacrylate is proper I agree, and yes they will never separate again if done right. I would, should send you all my broken slates to fix it seems that you are rather good at it. I unfortunately don't have any broken, and I hope to keep it that way. To all the readers out there tune in next week for the following discussions: tacks v.s. staples and 1in. v.s. 1-1/2in. slate (how much really is overkill). I'm sure it will be riveting. Later .....off to work,.

P.S. those 3 piece 12' snookers must be a *****.
 
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Actually the 5 piece snooker slates you mean?...LOL And yes, almost any type of seam filler used in the hands of an expert will turn out okay, but such is not the case for a lot of technicians which is why some of use is over worked...while others are just over paid...lmao
 
Well, I guess no one really has a solution to this problem...I guess I may have to give up the answer sooner or later.
 
Take a small hydraulic jack, place it on the high side of the slate in the center of the area that won't line up flush with the center slate, placing the jack about 1/2" back from the seam. Next, take a 2" ratchet strap, wrap it completely around the table going from side to side under the table frame and across the slate and across the top of the jack, tighten down the strap tight. Then jack up the jack slowly watching the seams for alignment. As you raise the jack against the strap, it'll increase pressure against the slate causing it to push downward. Once the slates line up with each other, glue the slates together with super glue. After the glue dries take the pressure off the strap, then finish off seaming the slate the way you normally would. Because you're actually applying downward pressure against the slate, it won't cause it to raise up anywhere else while you're doing this. You can actually watch the slate moving with a machinist level while you're applying pressure against the slate. This process should only be used as a last resort. This is not a substitute to leveling slates properly first.
 
Smart

I thin you know your SH*T ,,as a millwright I can appreciate various tricks.
Now may I ask what brand of rubber you recomend for a GC1 pro eight??
 
That table has a playing surface of 46"x92" and originally came out with Brunswick Super-speed K55 rubber. If it were me, I'd install it with the Artemus Intercontinental 66 "K55" rubber, it plays soooooo good. BUT, is the rubber bad on your table? Because if it's not, why would you change it? Brunswick Super-speed is still one of the best rubber ever put on a pool table!

Glen
 
Speed

is the main reason plus I want to have the rubber extended to tighten it up.I am trying to get the table to play more like the ones that I play tourneys on.I don't think mine are really dead but I do hear a THUD,I think where the rail bolts are,also I will be going whith faster cloth.I now have Mali backed cloth.What would you do,,I'll listen:)
Thanks
 
If your pulling down on a seam thats already leveled perfect to meet up with a seam that is low on one side wouldn't that cause the slate to be sagging and also cause the slate that was already level not tobe pirfect.You stated you where pulling down on a perfectly level piece of slate to meet up with a seam that is low.It sounds to me like there's a problem with one of the two pieces of slate either being crowned or sagging at a point.
 
On that table, the hour glass rail bold mounting plates was one of the flaws in the design, if the rail bolts were ever over tightened in the past...in which I assure you they were...the mounting plates are loose. No matter how tight you adjust the rail bolts, you're not going to get rid of the thud of the rails until you do something with the mounting plate screws...they're loose. You're going to have to take the rails off, turn them upside down and check every one of the plates..(18) Try tightening everyone of the wood screws that hold the plates secure. If any of the screws are stripped out, "just spin" in the rail, take the screw out, fill the hole half way with loctite then put the screw back in until it spins again then leave it alone to dry...go on to the next one. After doing all this...get rid of that nasty...NASTY cloth, get you some Simonis 760 and recover the table. You'll be suprised at the difference. Oh yeah, when tighten the rail bolts, only torque them to about 8 to 10 ft lbs and that's it. Yes...I use a torque wrench....ALWAYS! Any tighter than that, and all you're doing is pulling the nut plate down to the slate....you're not even tightening the rails. Over tightened, all the plates are doing is acting like a huge washer/nut.

As far as cloth goes, my rule of thumb for Simonis is...9ball, 1 pocket, bank pool, rotation = 860....8 ball, 14.1 straight pool,...760
 
NoBull9 said:
If your pulling down on a seam thats already leveled perfect to meet up with a seam that is low on one side wouldn't that cause the slate to be sagging and also cause the slate that was already level not tobe pirfect.You stated you where pulling down on a perfectly level piece of slate to meet up with a seam that is low.It sounds to me like there's a problem with one of the two pieces of slate either being crowned or sagging at a point.
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Sometimes do to what ever process of nature...the seams just don't want to line up perfect in some areas. Keep in mind that once you've super glued the slate together...releasing the pressure helps transfer the level to the other slate as well. In other words...they ballance out in the since that the high slate is being held down by the low slate, and the low slate is being held up by the high slate. I do it this way to avoid using a filler on the slate to try and feather out the high edge of the slate to try and match it up with the lower center slate, when you do that...all you're doing is creating a long ramp for the ball to roll on.
 
I guess my concern would be will the glue hold over time.I've seen installers glue the slate and Brunswick recomends it but I don't I haven't had a problem with seams seperating.
 
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