The difference between luck and luck.

CaptainJR

CaptainJR

Shiver me timbers.
Silver Member
I've seen several threads with people saying, I get all the bad roles and people answering, bad luck is just the results of bad decisions or poor shots. The later just can't be argued with. The only problem with saying this is then you also must say that good luck is also just the results of good decisions and good shots. If your saying there is no such thing as bad luck then you also much say there is no such thing as good luck.

For the purpose of this thread I like to say that we are only talking about the shooters luck, or lack there of, while they are shooting. It would be opening another issue if we would talk about the sitter being lucky that his opponent missed a shot. Let's just talk about the person shooting.

I have changed my attitude on luck. I use to think that I always got the worst rolls. Then my teacher continuously pointed out how to avoid them. I won't go as far to say there is no such thing as luck. I will say that the better player you are, the less luck has to do with the outcome of your inning.

With that said I think a person that thinks they are unlucky needs to look at the other side. I'll use me for example. If I'm playing position that is 3 to 5 feet away from the object ball, I'm normally trying to put the cue ball in about a 12" diameter area. I'm not good enough to think that I can sit the cue ball on a dime 4 feet away from the object ball. Let's say there is another ball just outside that 12" diameter area that my cue ball falls behind and leaves me nothing. Bad luck? First off it doesn't matter at that point, but if your going to call that bad luck then on your next inning when you put the cue ball in the center of that 12" diameter area, let's say within two inches of where you want it. I also have to call that good luck. That was a long sentence, let me try again. If your calling just missing position and ending up with nothing 'bad luck' then you also have to call getting perfect position good luck.

Now I know that I get a lot more Good Luck than Bad Luck. I think that this attitude agrees with the people that say bad luck is just a result of bad decisions and poor shots, but it also takes into account a persons abilities. If your not good enough to get what you want every time, then don't forget about the times you get lucky and get exactly what you want. I think people that say they get all the bad roles are forgetting about all the good roles they get. They probably are calling very bad roles bad luck and very good roles skill. You can't do that. If your not good enough to put it just where you want it most of the time then getting a good role still has a little to do with luck as far as your concerned. So don't forget about all your good luck.

So now when I have sent the ball two rails and walk around to see what I have on my next shoot and say "OOOHHHH YEA, I LIKE IT". I try to remind myself that I'm not quite good enough to do that on purpose yet and it was a very good role. Thank goodness we don't need perfect all the time, or even most of the time for that matter.

Thank you Pool Gods for giving me more Good Luck than Bad Luck.
 
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I agree

Captain, IMO you certainly have the kind of attitude toward luck that will lead to having good luck.


Thinking back a few years. I resembled your example of someone who felt unlucky when things went wrong, yet it was surely my superior skills that allowed me to go four rails, bump three balls and end up perfect on the next shot.

These days I see things a little different. If I hose a shot, I try to look at it realisticly and figure out what I did wrong. I won`t learn anything if I attribute a failure to luck. On the other hand, if I pull off a shot that is really above and beyond my ability, I can`t help but feel a little lucky.
 
thecyclone@btin said:
bad luck is only spoken by loosers not winners!
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but ive bad lucked my way thru a rack for a win before! too long here and bumped a ball in pocket and kept me in line for run outs...so even though i miss judged my position and went too far or tried coming off the end rail and get position and cut the 9 in for a win...does that mean my bad luck was good luck? or just good luck? personally i feel like an ass when stuff like that happens...i always feel obligated to atleast apologize but i dont give the shot back! :D
 
First off, not to nitpick, but it is "rolls" as in rolling the ball, not "roles" as in playing the white hat prince charming lover boy or black hat evil gambler ne'er do well in a movie drama. No big deal. Rolls.

There are lucky rolls, and there are not so lucky but good rolls with an element of planning/shot selection/speed control of object ball and cue ball to get those rolls.

First, lucky. I get them, you get them, opponent gets them. Wave your hand, say OK!, sorry! Go for it! All's fair, happens to me, happens to you, so it goes. (in your chair, wait for the mistake, it is the best you can do when it happens. Don't play Earl bitching about shitting in shots, it is a poor attitude.)

Things that look lucky but really aren't.

Watch tapes with Efren Reyes, and see him choose shot selections and speed control like a two-cushion bank with blockers if he misses, sticking the cue ball and position if he makes it, and you will soon realize he can't lose if all goes very close to planned or even misses both ends of the shot. Either way, Efren has position and the out or opponent is on defense, with an iffy hit and likely to give up a better shot or BIH. This isn't luck, it is exactly why a dominant runout dog Earl rates Efren the smartest pool player he has ever matched up with. Offensive chances Efren doesn't give up unless he just doesn't believe he is going to miss, sometimes he is wrong. But he doesn't give games away easy often.

If pressed for time, ignore the random nature of the rest of the post, and don't quote me for quibbles.

I can't tell you how many good offensive B shooters I play that as long as the balls fall they are runout, but if a ball bobbles, it is easy pickings for me. Whereas at my best if I choose each shot well I have position on the next ball and safety on the last shot if missed. It is a blessing to me, a curse to my opponents, they call me lucky and I encourage this... but it is more a matter of learning DEFENSE IS IMPORTANT and 50% or more of the game if you relish the thought of giving your opponent 35 migraines per match, and one offensive chance, and they are so pissed off when they get to the one chance they blow it. This is one way to play "the game".

The better player you are, the less luck involved in each and every shot, you KNOW what is intended, and it isn't very far off if missed for both CB and OB.

One of the first rules we all know in good pool is DO NOT RUN INTO/CHANGE THE POSITION OF ANY BALL without damn good reason. Uncertainty sucks, especially if it is our next ball to shoot. If it can't be avoided, OK, that's a reason. Will you be hitting above/center/below side of the ball? This you must take your best contact point guesses at with high/low CB cueing choices, and plan the relative speeds and likely position routes from all balls involved in these caroms. Just "likely smacking into a ball" doesn't gaurantee you diddly but, um, "bad luck". LOL.

It gets real complex real quick and if you don't yet have the cue ball control to know where it will contact... you are playing pot luck and will call it "good luck" if it ends up right and "ooh me bad luck" when misjudged. And it really isn't much luck after all if you can judge these factors finer than your opponent.

Playing straight pool with almost straight in shots, a firm shot with the most minor touches of high/low left/right English will yield dramatically different position results in a tightly clustered table, which just doesn't happen much in a game of 9-ball where area position and two-rail routes to get free are more common plays. Straight pool requires pin-point position, and is a great help in all pool games.

I get luckier than my opponent often. But it isn't really luck. And if they respond by fuming in the chair and blowing their legitimate chances when they come.... well, lucky me.
 
luck

There are only 3 instances of luck in my opinion, one is where the table does
not roll true and rolls off either for or against you, second is if the table has a bad rail or two (dead rails), and third is when you pocket a ball dead center on
a bar box and it comes back up on the table (which really could have been
prevented with different english and speed).

Everything else is a reaction to an action. period.

I don't care if you hit a ball, it hits 3 rails and knocks the 9 ball in, you still
hit the cue ball with that english, at that angle, and with that speed.

People call what comes out in their favor, but not according to their plan,
Good luck, and what does not come out in their favor, Bad luck. But, on
further scrutiny, you can just see the reaction was a result of the action taken.

What you don't know all the time, is the action and reaction what your
opponent INTENDED to do or was it an accident.

As Wichita Wings Soccer Player, Jorgen Christenson used to say after
he scored a hat trick at age 40, "Even a blind chicken finds the corn sometimes."
 
Apparently I goofed up and posted a luck thread somewhere else, when it was intended here.

First rule of good play is, hit no other balls unless you must because uncertainty sucks, if you must then plan via top/center/bottom spin for high side, center, or low side contact and spin/speed out accordingly, and God help you, ya lucky risky offensive bastard. Next time you may well come up snakeeyes, and I won't be weeping for you, I'll pick up the pieces and finish the out.

There is luck (bad) where your opponent can over a series of shots make risky choices and come up roses each time. C'iest la vie, such is life. Won't last. Clap loud, applaud, mutter softly under your breath, hope for the mistake that lets you back in, and a touch of luck going your way as the odds indicate may.
 
Snapshot9 said:
What you don't know all the time, is the action and reaction what your
opponent INTENDED to do or was it an accident.
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Amen to that. Sometimes it is better to say (in Japan) "zen zen chigau" (that was a total mistake!) and mean it, and sometimes you had a notion it might end up snookers and you still might claim mistake... or nod wisely and sit down, let the opponent wonder WTF that was all about. Pool is a rich rich game on many levels. Love it!

Scott, I live in Japan 7,500 miles away 11months out of the year, but will be in and about Lawrence, KS, from July 16-ish to Aug. 10-ish this year, want to play? Only 250 miles or so. Lawrence, KC, Topeka, Wichita, Emporia, Strong City, say the word, lets have some fun, I need a serious full round of ass whoopin to let me know where I yet need to go. PM me, we talked about this once before.
 
The difference between a good player and a not so good player is, the good players first thought is "how do i get out from here ? " instead of " what a bad roll ! " I think Buddy actually had a training tape by that name.
 
There is no such thing as luck. Unless you can temporarily suspend the laws of physics, they only go where you hit them. There is no luck involved, ever. It may not necessarily have been your exact intention, but that does not mean luck played a part. You may ascribe luck to the chance turn of a card, or the toss of a coin, but luck plays absolutely no part in cue sports. Apart from my mate Dave of course. He's a right spawny git him.

Boro Nut
 
Boro Nut said:
It may not necessarily have been your exact intention, but that does not mean luck played a part.
.

Boro Nut
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couldn't the guy be lucky that he hit the ball bad unknowingly and got safe????

luck was the part where he hit the ball bad.


VAP
 
RAG said:
The difference between a good player and a not so good player is, the good players first thought is "how do i get out from here ? " instead of " what a bad roll ! " I think Buddy actually had a training tape by that name.
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True. Many times a good players gets out of difficult snooker, hits the ball and makes it or leaves his opponent hooked. Now, opponent is disgusted and thinks how the shooter was lucky, but never realizes that:

1. The shooter needed skill in hitting the object ball from the rails.
2. There are usually several ways & routes to escape from a snooker and the good player chose the most likely alternative to have a successful shot.
3. After selecting the shot, the shooter adjusted the pace to at least have a chance of getting "lucky" by leaving a snooker or making a ball.
 
A different POV

My take on this whole luck thing has more to do with what the other player does. At this point, I know when I goofed up, and most of the time it is one of those "I can't believe I just did that" type of things. However, I have had nights where I play people whose only intention is to pocket the ball playing 9 ball, and when they miss, whitey runs 20 feet and ends up behind everything. Once, OK, but there are times where it just keeps happening over and over again.

Just last night in league a guy on my team, a 4, was playing a 2. My guy rarely could see the object ball beacause the 2 luckily rolled behind blockers. This is a 2 who missed ball in hand 4 times in one game. Then to top it off, the 2 had 2 9 ball shots into the side pocket that were straight in which they ended up banking 2 rails into the pocket they were trying to shoot directly into. Then the game ball banked up and down the table getting both end rails twice and went in for the 2. This was on a Diamond Pro table too, not a sloppy pocket bar table.

So if you ask me there is luck, both good and bad in the game. Hopefully any bad luck gets balanced out with a couple of hanging 9 balls from your opponent along the way somewhere but some nights things just look real crappy every time you leave your chair.

mjantti said:
True. Many times a good players gets out of difficult snooker, hits the ball and makes it or leaves his opponent hooked. Now, opponent is disgusted and thinks how the shooter was lucky, but never realizes that:

1. The shooter needed skill in hitting the object ball from the rails.
2. There are usually several ways & routes to escape from a snooker and the good player chose the most likely alternative to have a successful shot.
3. After selecting the shot, the shooter adjusted the pace to at least have a chance of getting "lucky" by leaving a snooker or making a ball.
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CaptainJR said:
I've seen several threads with people saying, I get all the bad roles and people answering, bad luck is just the results of bad decisions or poor shots.
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Ever notice, and I don't believe this is magical thinking, that when you're loose and playing well, that you tend to get more good rolls? And when you're doggin it, and your opponent starts feeling good, that HE's the one whose 9 is always going toward the corner pocket on the snap?
 
vapoolplayer said:
wait till you have one of those crappy nights where you DON'T leave your chair :D
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I'm with VAP on this one. If you get ANY kind of opportunity to get to the table, whether it be on a kick or whatever, you should just be happy you even got to the table and had a chance.

peace
-egg
 
Lucky misses

vapoolplayer said:
couldn't the guy be lucky that he hit the ball bad unknowingly and got safe????

luck was the part where he hit the ball bad.


VAP
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What about when I try to slam a ball into the corner pocket, miss badly, and watch the object ball go two rails into the diagonally opposite corner ? This is a case of missing the shot, but missing such that a perfect 2 railer is executed. That is a lucky miss. I'm sure that most here know of these 'good misses' (in 9 ball of course :) ). Some of my other favorite 9 ball shots include :

- miss the corner, 2 rails to the side
- miss the side, corner bank
- miss the cross-side bank, double cross side bank
- rattle into the corner, spit out to the other corner
- miss the side, hit the horn, slide down the rail to the corner

OK, so I'm not very good, but at least I know how to miss good :D

Dave
 
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Of course there is luck in pool - both bad and good. The idea that "there's no such thing as bad luck" is just something that people tell themselves in order to mentally deal with bad rolls. Rather than face the reality that they just encountered some bad luck (and may consequently blow up, mentally, because of it), they just deny that there was any bad luck to begin with. That's their way of dealing with the mental grind that competitive pool presents. I don't like dealing with it that way because that idea is based on something that isn't true, and therefore has less chance of standing up to a lot of pressure (it's hard to bullshit your mind into believing there is no such thing as luck when your opponent is getting every roll in the book and beating you because of it). The way I like to deal with the reality of bad luck is to just know that, more often than not, rolls equal out. Of course, there are those matches where nothing goes your way and the luck never equals out, but on the other side of that, there are matches where EVERYTHING goes your way and the luck never equals out for your opponent. If you look back over the day, or the course of a tournament, if you take all of your matches into consideration, more often than not, you'll see that the luck did, indeed, equal out.
 
If you let your opponent get to the table, then you gave him the chance to get lucky.

peace
-egg

Jimmy M. said:
Of course there is luck in pool - both bad and good. The idea that "there's no such thing as bad luck" is just something that people tell themselves in order to mentally deal with bad rolls. Rather than face the reality that they just encountered some bad luck (and may consequently blow up, mentally, because of it), they just deny that there was any bad luck to begin with. That's their way of dealing with the mental grind that competitive pool presents. I don't like dealing with it that way because that idea is based on something that isn't true, and therefore has less chance of standing up to a lot of pressure (it's hard to bullshit your mind into believing there is no such thing as luck when your opponent is getting every roll in the book and beating you because of it). The way I like to deal with the reality of bad luck is to just know that, more often than not, rolls equal out. Of course, there are those matches where nothing goes your way and the luck never equals out, but on the other side of that, there are matches where EVERYTHING goes your way and the luck never equals out for your opponent. If you look back over the day, or the course of a tournament, if you take all of your matches into consideration, more often than not, you'll see that the luck did, indeed, equal out.
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