The Greatest

R

RED NAXELA

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Whenever I see a thread saying "so-and-so is the greatest player who ever held a cue", I ask myself why people are so obsessed with this topic. I guess it is human nature. We want to put a label on everything, as if all life's aspects can be reduced into an almanac: who's the best, who's the worst,etc. That said, perhaps no other thread provokes more emotion and flag-waving than this one. So when somebody proclaims EFREN to be the greatest player of all time, I wince even though I am EFREN's fan and a Filipino. Why? Because the truth of the matter is that EFREN, or any other player, may not be called the greatest of all time (despite what BD surveys say) because neither he nor anyone else has lived and played all cue sports since they were invented centuries or decades ago against the best, living or dead. If EFREN's greatness has to be measured, it may only be done within the context of the last 20 years or so, because he has tested himself against the best in the world only since 1985 when he first came to the U.S.

It is, however, possible to call a player the greatest in an individual cue sport, or a number of cue sports, or within a given time frame. So here is my take on it:

1. 9BALL : STRICKLAND. 3 world and 5 U.S. Open titles. Based on major titles as in golf, nobody comes close, not even EFREN and Color of Money I & II notwithstanding. EFREN himself admitted this to be his weakest game, but I'd put him among the top 5.

2. 8BALL : EFREN. Has more world titles than any other active top pro player today. If there were as many 8ball tournaments as there are in 9ball, EFREN will have more 8ball than 9ball titles.

3. 1POCKET : RONNIE ALLEN. I'd put EFREN at second. ALLEN himself said EFREN is the best 1pocket player today. EFREN won the Master of the Table Title on all three times he played the DCC since 1999, mainly due to his dominance in 1pocket.

4. STRAIGHT POOL: MOSCONI. Period. There aren't enough tournaments that EFREN played, so I don't know how he would figure in the rankings.

5. BANK POOL : EDDIE TAYLOR. EFREN had decent showings, but never won one, at the DCC, so I would not even put him in the top 10.

6. BALKLINE : WILLIE HOPE. Period.

7. 3CUSHION : CEULEMANN. EFREN plays balkline and 3cushion well, and was in fact a 3C champion in the Philippines before he started his campaign in the U.S., but there are not enough tournaments played to place him in the rankings.

8. SNOOKER : JOE DAVIS, STEVE DAVIS, RONNIE O'SULLIVAN. Take your pick; better yet, we will let our British friends sort this out among themselves. EFREN was a Southeast Asian Games snooker champion, and DARYL PEACH said he saw EFREN beat RONNIE O and JIMMY WHITE in a friendly match, but I would not be carried away by this. EFREN plays this game well, but I don't think he can beat any of the top 10 in a real tournament in England.

9. 15BALL ROTATION : EFREN. He will dominate this game and win more world titles in it than any other game, were there such tournaments.

My conclusions:

1. EFREN can play all games well. He can compete, and win, at the highest level in at least 5 of the 9 disciplines.

2. If all 9 disciplines had an equal share in the number of tournaments, EFREN will win more world titles in 15ball rotation than all world 15ball titles of the other players combined. His titles in 15ball and 1pocket will outnumber all titles he could possibly win in the other 7 disciplines combined.

3. EFREN is the greatest all-around player in cue sports for the last 20 years.
 
A generally well-reasoned post with, what I believe to be, a valid conclusion. Efren is the greatest, on the basis of being an incredible all-around player.

The case for Strickland, who has won six, not three world championships, is rock solid. Tough to argue with it. Good call.

As for straight pool, choosing between Mosconi, Greenleaf, and Sigel is really rather difficult, but it would be tough to fault your choice of Willie.

In snooker, I'd probably have gone with Steve Hendry over Ronnie O'Sullivan on the basis of longer sustained excellence, but your choices are solid.

I don't agree with the Ronnie Allen choice, but it's reasonable.

The only argument you'll get from me is in three cushion, where Blomdahl must surely get the nod over Ceulemans. Of all cuesports, three cushion may be the one where comparison accross generations of players is easiest, in part because of the quality of the superb recordkeeping. While Cuelemans' huge number of world championships is mosty impressive, most of them were done with an average per inning of about 1.4 or so. Yes, for some of his career, he competed on the slower cloth, and that has to be considered. Still, Blomdahl has won countless tournaments in which he has average over 2.0 per inning and a couple where he averaged closer to 3.0, and in the eyes of many, plays the game at a significantly higher level than ever seen before.....and I've heard some guys who've been around pro three cushion for sixty years say exactly the same.
 
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RED NAXELA said:
Whenever I see a thread saying "so-and-so is the greatest player who ever held a cue", I ask myself why people are so obsessed with this topic. I guess it is human nature. We want to put a label on everything, as if all life's aspects can be reduced into an almanac: who's the best, who's the worst,etc. That said, perhaps no other thread provokes more emotion and flag-waving than this one. So when somebody proclaims EFREN to be the greatest player of all time, I wince even though I am EFREN's fan and a Filipino. Why? Because the truth of the matter is that EFREN, or any other player, may not be called the greatest of all time (despite what BD surveys say) because neither he nor anyone else has lived and played all cue sports since they were invented centuries or decades ago against the best, living or dead. If EFREN's greatness has to be measured, it may only be done within the context of the last 20 years or so, because he has tested himself against the best in the world only since 1985 when he first came to the U.S.

It is, however, possible to call a player the greatest in an individual cue sport, or a number of cue sports, or within a given time frame. So here is my take on it:

1. 9BALL : STRICKLAND. 3 world and 5 U.S. Open titles. Based on major titles as in golf, nobody comes close, not even EFREN and Color of Money I & II notwithstanding. EFREN himself admitted this to be his weakest game, but I'd put him among the top 5.

2. 8BALL : EFREN. Has more world titles than any other active top pro player today. If there were as many 8ball tournaments as there are in 9ball, EFREN will have more 8ball than 9ball titles.

3. 1POCKET : RONNIE ALLEN. I'd put EFREN at second. ALLEN himself said EFREN is the best 1pocket player today. EFREN won the Master of the Table Title on all three times he played the DCC since 1999, mainly due to his dominance in 1pocket.

4. STRAIGHT POOL: MOSCONI. Period. There aren't enough tournaments that EFREN played, so I don't know how he would figure in the rankings.

5. BANK POOL : EDDIE TAYLOR. EFREN had decent showings, but never won one, at the DCC, so I would not even put him in the top 10.

6. BALKLINE : WILLIE HOPE. Period.

7. 3CUSHION : CEULEMANN. EFREN plays balkline and 3cushion well, and was in fact a 3C champion in the Philippines before he started his campaign in the U.S., but there are not enough tournaments played to place him in the rankings.

8. SNOOKER : JOE DAVIS, STEVE DAVIS, RONNIE O'SULLIVAN. Take your pick; better yet, we will let our British friends sort this out among themselves. EFREN was a Southeast Asian Games snooker champion, and DARYL PEACH said he saw EFREN beat RONNIE O and JIMMY WHITE in a friendly match, but I would not be carried away by this. EFREN plays this game well, but I don't think he can beat any of the top 10 in a real tournament in England.

9. 15BALL ROTATION : EFREN. He will dominate this game and win more world titles in it than any other game, were there such tournaments.

My conclusions:

1. EFREN can play all games well. He can compete, and win, at the highest level in at least 5 of the 9 disciplines.

2. If all 9 disciplines had an equal share in the number of tournaments, EFREN will win more world titles in 15ball rotation than all world 15ball titles of the other players combined. His titles in 15ball and 1pocket will outnumber all titles he could possibly win in the other 7 disciplines combined.

3. EFREN is the greatest all-around player in cue sports for the last 20 years.
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I like your picks for the most part, mine are similar
here they are:

9-ball: Earl Strickland, besides his huge amount of
credentials he just looks like he was born to play
the game. (my personal favorite all-time pool player
as well)

8-ball: Efren Reyes, a few world 8-ball titles...I
don't know of anyone else with more than one.

1-pocket: Efren Reyes and Ronnie Allen.

14.1: Ralph Greenleaf and Willie Mosconi: Although
I never saw them play in their prime, they dominated
the game in their eras and the many big runs credited
to them on 5 x 10's is remarkable. A case could
be made for Mizerak and Sigel as well.

3-cushion: Blomdahl, something like 8 world titles,
in an era when the averages are as high as ever.

Snooker: Ronnie O'Sullivan and Steve Hendry.
Hendry dominated the 90's with 7 World titles and is
still #2 in the world. O'Sullivan when he's on is
absoltely unbeatable and snooker experts agree he's
the most talented player to ever play the game.

English Billiards: Walter Lindrum, he utterly
dominated the game his entire life.

Greatest Cueist Ever: Walter Lindrum, he was so
dominant that he had to spot all other top players
7,000 points a match (games often went to 30,000 over
a week or two) and still usually won them.

Greatest pool player ever: Hard to say. The best I
ever saw is Mike Sigel, with Efren Reyes a close
second and Nick Varner not far behind. I never saw
Mosconi and Greenleaf but I have no doubt about
their greatness.
 
RED NAXELA said:
I ask myself why people are so obsessed with this topic.[/B]
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we do it cuz it's fun.

there's something about being the first, the most influential,,,the one who CHANGES the game, that appeals to me most. and since my pool history is sorely lacking, i can only say the efren seems to fit the bill quite well.
 
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To SJM & BOBBY: Thank you for your posts. I am enlightened and now defer to your opinion that Mr. BLOMDAHL is the greatest 3Cushion player.

To SJM: You disagreed with my choice of RA in 1pocket but did not mention yours. As you can see, my opinions are not set in stone and I am willing to change them when presented with better arguments. My knowledge of pool lore is a bucket to your ocean, and as my Texan friend will always say, "I'm ready for an ed'kshun."
 
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