The plane of your stroke?

henho

I Beat Fidelshnitzer
Silver Member
Here is one little concept thats helped me hone my stroke recently. Just as one adjusts the length of their bridge and stroke depending on the shot, you can also change the plane of your stroke relative to your body.

Stand normally and hold the cue parallel to your body, facing straight up. This is one end of the plane, let us call this 90 degrees. Now hold the cue parallel to the floor and perfectly perpendicular to your body, this is the other extreme, let us call this 0 degrees. When you get down on your shot, your plane is somewhere between these two extremes. The plane describes the angle the cue makes relative to the floor (and your body) when you are down on a shot.

For example, in order to get into a stance with a 45 degree plane, stand straight up, and hold the cue at a 45 degree angle from the floor (and your body), at the same distance as it will be when you are down on the shot. Then lower the cue and your body until the cue is parallel to the table and you are in your stance. Some players use this as a preshot routine, notably snooker players such as John Horsfall.

Being aware of the plane of your stroke adds a new element to your arsenal. All players adjust the plane of their stroke unconsciously, including professionals, depending on the shot. One can essentially change the power and accuracy of one's stroke by changing the plane. A plane closer to 0 degrees (parallel to the floor) will be more powerful, while one closer to 90 degrees (parallel to your body) will be more accurate. For a breakshot, try standing straight up, and holding the cue so that it makes an angle of about 20 degrees with the floor, again holding it at the same distance as it will be when down in your stance, then lower yourself and the cue until the cue is parallel to the table. You will be standing more upright, with your head higher and farther back, giving you a more powerful but less accurate stroke. Contrast this with holding the cue 70 degrees from the floor, so that it is much closer to being parallel with your body than with the floor, then lower yourself and the cue until the cue is parallel. Your head is now down lower and farther forward, and your stroking hand is closer to the front of your body than earlier, providing more accuracy but a bit less power. If one naturally tends to stand more upright, then a lower plane is appropriate, while low crouchers can use a higher plane and still have room to stroke.
 
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henho said:
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Stand normally and hold the cue parallel to your body, facing straight up. This is one end of the plane, let us call this 90 degrees. Now hold the cue parallel to the floor and perfectly perpendicular to your body, this is the other extreme, let us call this 0 degrees. When you get down on your shot, your plane is somewhere between these two extremes. The plane describes the angle the cue makes relative to the floor (and your body) when you are down on a shot.

Everyone else calls it the angle of elevation.

...

A plane closer to 0 degrees (parallel to the floor) will be more powerful, while one closer to 90 degrees (parallel to your body) will be more accurate.

I don't find masse' shots to be more accurate than a level shot.

The rest of your advice sounds like it would be very painful and humiliating. I think I'll pass.
 
angle of elevation.

Like it was just stated, if the bigger the angle is more accurate then why are jump shots and masse shots so much harder to be accurate on?

The closer to 0 that you are the more accurate, and more powerful you are. I have yet to see someone not be consistent on a break with a 0 degree angle. In fact that is what I try to strive for on the break, and I am pretty consistent with it.
From RandyG. Pool School:

1 degree of elevation equals 3 percent of error.

Meaning for every degree you move upward, you add 3 percent of error. So like you stated on the break move to 20 degrees, you just added 60 percent more error to your stroke!!!!!!
 
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I guess this is a little bit hard to explain without demonstration but I'm not talking about the angle of elevation. The cue is always level to the table, what changes is the angle of your upper body. I dont suggest doing the whole routine every time, its simply a way of conveying the concept. If you stand up straight, hold the cue at an angle of lets say 30 degrees from your body, then lower both your body and the cue until they are parallel to the table, your stance and stroke will be different then if you started with the cue 50 degrees from your body then lowered until the cue is parallel to the table. In both instances the cue is parallel to the table (not elevated). What changes is the angle of the upper body, and how far you lean forward. If you start with a plane closer to the floor, your hips and body will be closer to the joint of the cue when you get down, and if you start with one closer to the upright, your hips and body will be farther back. Ah well, the advice came from a good player and helped me tremendously, guess its one of those things better seen than read.

In this photo, this guy has a plane that is farther from his body; his head is farther up and his hips are closer to the joint of the cue:
http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/showpicture.cfm?eventnum=162&photographernum=24&picnum=9180
If standing exactly as he is in that photo, Mr. lynch raised his bridge hand up and moved his stroke hand forward an equal amount, then lowered himself until the cue was again parallel to the table, he would be in a lower stance, with a higher elbow, and his hips farther back from the joint. Note that this is different then simply standing as he is and getting lower to the cue.

And this fine lady has a plane of stroke much closer to her body, in fact the cue is almost parallel to her body and her hips lie farther back relative to the joint:
http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/showpicture.cfm?eventnum=162&photographernum=24&picnum=9185

In both cases the cue is level, but the angle of the body relative to the cue is different.

The rest of your advice sounds like it would be very painful and humiliating.
Someone calling themselves "The Zen Cueist" doesn't seem particularly concerned about appearing humiliated.
 
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txplshrk said:
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Meaning for every degree you move upward, you add 3 percent of error. So like you stated on the break move to 20 degrees, you just added 60 percent more error to your stroke!!!!!!

So if I jack up 33-1/3 degrees and aim to miss, I'll pocket every shot? :eek: I can't put much faith in RandyG's rule of thumb.
 
henho said:
I guess this is a little bit hard to explain without demonstration but I'm not talking about the angle of elevation. The cue is always level to the table, what changes is the angle of your upper body. ... What changes is the angle of the upper body, and how far you lean forward.

http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/showpicture.cfm?eventnum=162&photographernum=24&picnum=9180

http://www.azbilliards.com/gallery/showpicture.cfm?eventnum=162&photographernum=24&picnum=9185

In both cases the cue is level, but the angle of the body relative to the cue is different.

Ooookaayyy... so some players get down on their cues and others stand up straighter. Conventional wisdom has long recommended the former stance. Are you trying to describe a method of achieving such a stance consistently, or what?

Someone calling themselves "The Zen Cueist" doesn't seem particularly concerned about appearing humiliated.

Humility is a cardinal principle of Zen Cueism. Painful contortions are not. A Zen Cueism adept flows naturally into his ideal stance without strain or distracting thought, like beer into an esophagus.
 
To be more clear henho, you have to display picture of the same player changing their plane, or whatever. As far as I could tell that was just how they stand relative to the cue on any given shot.
 
henho said:
In both cases the cue is level, but the angle of the body relative to the cue is different.
I understood your first post and agree with it. Watch Mike Massey while shooting super stroke shots, he is in a relatively high stance. Where you are using the word plane, most would say 'stance height' instead.

I have heard the term plane used to desribe, a vertical plane that includes; the eyes, shoulder, elbow, wrist, cue, cue ball etc...

Tracy
 
No

What Randy is saying is your adding in difficulty for every degree your adding in with elevation. Not saying the shot can't be made, just saying it is more difficult and a bigger margin of error. That is all he is saying.
 
great idea

I think what henho is trying to say is that, if your already have a standard head height from your cue(be it chin on cue, or chin ten inches above the cue, or anywhere in between) that you can add more consistency to your preshot routine by learning to place your cue at a consistent angle to your body during your standing address. Therefore allowing you to simply step into the shot and assume your stance more accurately, and with a greater repeatability. Basicly if you start in your standing address with your cue at a 50 degree angle from your body then when you get down on the shot that same 50 degree angle will just rotate from your hips allowing the distance from your cue to your chin to remain the same, you could do the same thing by starting with your cue set against your chin in the standing address and by simply rotating at your hips you could land in your finish stroking position without moving your upper body at all.

I find this an excellent idea that I have never heard expounded by any other teacher (professional or other wise). I personally plan on extensive trials of this system as i see the possiblities to eliminate another variable from my game, which might possibly lead to another level of play.

This is the reason I venture into pool forums, in the hope of finding new and inciteful ideas, it makes the hours of wadeing through "what tip is the best" posts and "what cue should I buy" posts worht while. Don't get me wrong i find something of use in all posts and understand that people post on things that are most important to themselves, i like posts that may lead to that next elusive plateau.

Thank you henho for a truely though provoking post.

Bern
 
Big Bad Bern, thanks for your reply, I think you understood my post. I also understand that this is not something easily described in writing, maybe I can get a diagram up at some point. The best description I could think of was changing the angle of the cue to your body while standing, then lowering into your stance until the cue is level.

While this does indeed change your stance height, that is not the only thing that changes. A stroke plane that is more parallel to your body will make several parts of your stroke different, relative to a stroke that is at say 45 degrees from your body when down. Having a plane closer to parallel with your body a la Karen Corr means: high elbow, slightly less room to stroke, upper body farther forward relative to lower body, hips farther from cue joint, etc. Manipulating the plane of the stroke relative to the body modulates all of these variables. The trick is to have them all change alike and consistently. On a break shot, if the plane is farther from the body, you are standing more upright, but your body will also lie farther behind ( rather than adjacent) of the cue, allowing your weight to follow the cue on the follow-through.

If you look at the picture of Chris Lynch, if he simply bent down to lower his head onto the cue, he would be in a lower stance but the plane would essentially remain the same; he would have to curl his upper body to get down low. You see this in many players; Evgeny Stalev is a good example. He has a wide plane, but curls his upper body to get down low to the cue.

Similarly, if karen corr stood as she is in the above photo and simply raised herself up, she would be standing higher, but her body would still be straight and her head would move backwards. In order to have a properly aligned stroke, she would have to adjust the plane relative to her body, so that it lies less parallel to her body. Many snooker players stroke with the cue more parallel to their body, because this affords a bit more accuracy, but also because a snooker table is higher then a regulation pool table, and getting into such a stance is easier.

There is a number of ways to change the plane and get down into the stance, but just being aware of it has helped my game quite a bit.
 
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Great stuff Henho, very informative. Does Chris always shoot with this stance or is the photo of him having a jacked up shot. The nine ball sorta gives me he was in that stance of a jacked up shot. Thanks.
 
I know in my case, there's a point when getting too low on the cue makes me lose the angle. I used to put my chin on the cue every shot, not now. I guess the easiest way to put it is, the longer the shot, the lower I get on the cue. Close shots like when playing 14.1, I play real high off the cue because I can see the angle much easier. I don't really think about it while playing, just something I noticed when I'm in deadpop.

Gerry
 
Gerry said:
I know in my case, there's a point when getting too low on the cue makes me lose the angle. I used to put my chin on the cue every shot, not now. I guess the easiest way to put it is, the longer the shot, the lower I get on the cue. ...

Same here, and I'm doubting that's a good idea. The closer one's line of sight gets to the line of the shot, the more visual information one loses. Imagine trying to aim with your dominant eye directly behind a perfectly level cue's butt. About all you'd see is a black circle in a white circle (the cue ball).

Standing taller allows me to see everything, and provides better perspective on angles and distances. Seeing exactly where I'm going to hit the cue ball isn't much of a problem by comparison.

Besides, my lower back and neck muscles ain't what they used to be. :(
 
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