tightened gold crown

[dendweller]

Wondering if anyone that has a gold crown with subrail extensions to get down to 4 3/8 - 4 1/2 can share their experience regarding
how it effected the difficulty of the table and how it reduced the shelf.

I kind of did an experiment, shimmed up the pockets to below 4 3/8. It's plays like crap, every time I miss close to a pocket the thud
makes me want to cover the table. That certainly would be remedied by getting the extensions but what I'm also noticing is that the
shelf is so short that the table didn't get much tougher when you factor in the deadness of the facings.

So I guess my questions are, how much shelf do you have left after getting to 4.5 and does the it make the table play a lot tougher when you consider the shelves.

Thanks

 

[FeelDaShot]

Wondering if anyone that has a gold crown with subrail extensions to get down to 4 3/8 - 4 1/2 can share their experience regarding
how it effected the difficulty of the table and how it reduced the shelf.

I kind of did an experiment, shimmed up the pockets to below 4 3/8. It's plays like crap, every time I miss close to a pocket the thud
makes me want to cover the table. That certainly would be remedied by getting the extensions but what I'm also noticing is that the
shelf is so short that the table didn't get much tougher when you factor in the deadness of the facings.

So I guess my questions are, how much shelf do you have left after getting to 4.5 and does the it make the table play a lot tougher when you consider the shelves.

Thanks

My rails were completely rebuilt to make 4.5 inch pockets. I attached two photos (green felt = before, blue felt = after). I know these pictures aren't the greatest but this is all I have saved on my phone. The shelf depth wasn't affected but the table plays a million times better and a little tougher but not overly challenging.

 

[Banger]

Check out the "sticky" thread on table difficulty. Many of us have added our table dimensions to the list.

Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) for measuring table "toughness"

Calculate your Table Difficulty Factor (TDF) to determine how tough it plays relative to other tables. Only three pocket measurements are required, and you can use the TDF calculator or TDF spreadsheet to get your results. username - table size, pocket mouth size, mouth-throat difference...

forums.azbilliards.com

 

[rexus31]

My subrails were extended and pockets cut to 4.125". I classify the table as tight but fair. I still have plenty of shelf left. If I recall correctly, it's 1.25". Going from stock cut pockets to 4.5" should have very minimal impact on shelf depth. Word to the wise: be sure you enlist the services of a mechanic who understand pocket geometry, how a pocket should play and has performed the task many times. Do your research and ask lots of questions in the mechanic's section of AZB. My corners were cut to 141 degrees with a 15 degree down angle. As for the sides, with 4.5" corners, the sides should be 5". Mine are 4.875" cut to 103 degrees which is commensurate with the 4.125" corners..

 

[bignick31985]

I had Mark Gregory rework my GC4 rails to Pro Cut pockets at 141, 4.5" with 4.75" sides at 102 and it plays tough but fair. Wouldn't trade it. Plays so good all around.

Last picture has the balls set back quite far. But it is 4.75" sides.

 

[fastone371]

My 4 1/2" pockets look like this, a little tighter than 4 1/2" but very happy with the way the table plays. Its a GCI and the shelves were extremely deep with the original opening so tightening up the pockets made the shelf more normal. Over half of the ball sits behind the nose of the cushion when the ball is in the jaws.

 

[realkingcobra]

My rails were completely rebuilt to make 4.5 inch pockets. I attached two photos (green felt = before, blue felt = after). I know these pictures aren't the greatest but this is all I have saved on my phone. The shelf depth wasn't affected but the table plays a million times better and a little tougher but not overly challenging.

I don't see where your pockets were extended, the throat of the pockets ar the picket casting look to have the same measurements.

 

[bradsh98]

Wondering if anyone that has a gold crown with subrail extensions to get down to 4 3/8 - 4 1/2 can share their experience regarding
how it effected the difficulty of the table and how it reduced the shelf.

I kind of did an experiment, shimmed up the pockets to below 4 3/8. It's plays like crap, every time I miss close to a pocket the thud
makes me want to cover the table. That certainly would be remedied by getting the extensions but what I'm also noticing is that the
shelf is so short that the table didn't get much tougher when you factor in the deadness of the facings.

So I guess my questions are, how much shelf do you have left after getting to 4.5 and does the it make the table play a lot tougher when you consider the shelves.

Thanks

I like cutting the pocket angles to 141 degrees by 12 degrees.
The 12 degree downward angle keeps the pocket playing a bit tougher, with the shorter shelf.

Additionally, using a softer facing will make the pocket play tougher. When I cut Brunswick pockets at less than 4.5", I use 50A durometer facings.

 

[realkingcobra]

I like cutting the pocket angles to 141 degrees by 12 degrees.
The 12 degree downward angle keeps the pocket playing a bit tougher, with the shorter shelf.

Additionally, using a softer facing will make the pocket play tougher. When I cut Brunswick pockets at less than 4.5", I use 50A durometer facings.

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[dendweller]

Thanks for all the responses.
Regarding loosing some of the shelf depth, given you need to replace subrails sometimes, I'm surprised someone hasn't made a subrail that is a little wider to make up for it. You'd loose a little off the playing field but hard to believe a 1/2 inch each way would be all that noticeable. Course, someone with experience with this stuff may have reasons why that's a horrible idea.

 

[bignick31985]

I believe when you change old Monarch cushions to newer cushions on older GC (1 and 2) you do lose a 1/4" each way. I'm sure a more experienced and knowledgeable person will chime in to verify or debunk. But I believe I've read that on here quite a few times.

 

[realkingcobra]

Thanks for all the responses.
Regarding loosing some of the shelf depth, given you need to replace subrails sometimes, I'm surprised someone hasn't made a subrail that is a little wider to make up for it. You'd loose a little off the playing field but hard to believe a 1/2 inch each way would be all that noticeable. Course, someone with experience with this stuff may have reasons why that's a horrible idea.

Mark Gregory does, he makes his new subrails 1/8" wider. Personally, I don't see the point, I think its more important to maintain the dimensions of the playing surface. No one on this planet has won or lost a match because if the depth of the pocket shelf.

 

[realkingcobra]

I believe when you change old Monarch cushions to newer cushions on older GC (1 and 2) you do lose a 1/4" each way. I'm sure a more experienced and knowledgeable person will chime in to verify or debunk. But I believe I've read that on here quite a few times.

You are correct, but thats only because of the inexperienced mechanic.

 

[The_JV]

I like cutting the pocket angles to 141 degrees by 12 degrees.
The 12 degree downward angle keeps the pocket playing a bit tougher, with the shorter shelf.

What would the downward angle normally be on a GC, or is this something that varies based on model..?

 

[Lawnboy77]

Mark Gregory does, he makes his new subrails 1/8" wider. Personally, I don't see the point, I think its more important to maintain the dimensions of the playing surface. No one on this planet has won or lost a match because if the depth of the pocket shelf.

You beat me to it Glen. Yeah that was one of the things I noticed right away with MG Pro-cut rails, they have 1/8” deeper subrails than stock rails. I like it though, and would rather keep as much shelf as possible when extending subrails. MG pro-cut pic below.

Below is a stock Anniversary rail

The stock rails are Jack Zimmerman stock spec rails. I love them both, but I prefer Artemis rubber over Superspeed, I'm kinda wishing I had Mark install Artemis instead of the Superspeeds on the pro-cuts. It looks to me like it would be impossible to extend the subrail and keep the original shelf without either making the subrail deeper, or replacing slate with deeper Diamond type corner cutouts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dendweller]

I now have just a 50 duro 3/8 facing which gives me exactly 4.5 inch pockets. Leaves me a little less than 1.25 inch shelve. I'm wondering if different versions of gold crown have different pocket cutouts in the slate because people have said they have more of a shelve with gc2s. Mine's a 4.

Anyway, I kind of made my table easier instead of more challenging, king of ironic. Don't know how much has to do with new cloth sliding the ball in but stuff I'm waiting to rattle ain't rattling.

Might also have to do with the way the table was set up initially, had 2 8th inch facings but they weren't parallel to the front of the rails, they were sloped back. I think it caused a couple things, one, more of a tendency to reject a ball with a rattle because of the angle of the slope. Two, when you hit a point you were hitting rail, not facing. They played pretty good, wish I didn't mess with it.

 

[garczar]

I now have just a 50 duro 3/8 facing which gives me exactly 4.5 inch pockets. Leaves me a little less than 1.25 inch shelve. I'm wondering if different versions of gold crown have different pocket cutouts in the slate because people have said they have more of a shelve with gc2s. Mine's a 4.

Anyway, I kind of made my table easier instead of more challenging, king of ironic. Don't know how much has to do with new cloth sliding the ball in but stuff I'm waiting to rattle ain't rattling.

Might also have to do with the way the table was set up initially, had 2 8th inch facings but they weren't parallel to the front of the rails, they were sloped back. I think it caused a couple things, one, more of a tendency to reject a ball with a rattle because of the angle of the slope. Two, when you hit a point you were hitting rail, not facing. They played pretty good, wish I didn't mess with it.

New cloth plays easy. Til it doesn't.

 

[dendweller]

You beat me to it Glen. Yeah that was one of the things I noticed right away with MG Pro-cut rails, they have 1/8” deeper subrails than stock rails. I like it though, and would rather keep as much shelf as possible when extending subrails. MG pro-cut pic below.

Below is a stock Anniversary rail

The stock rails are Jack Zimmerman stock spec rails. I love them both, but I prefer Artemis rubber over Superspeed, I'm kinda wishing I had Mark install Artemis instead of the Superspeeds on the pro-cuts. It looks to me like it would be impossible to extend the subrail and keep the original shelf without either making the subrail deeper, or replacing slate with deeper Diamond type corner cutouts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So I did some searching on math sites and if I'm interpreting it correctly, a pocket can be seen as an
isosceles right triangle meaning it has two corners at 45 degrees (the points) and one at 90. Call the line between the points
the base and the 90 degree the back of the pocket.

From the calculators they have it appears that if you make the base between the two 45s (points) less (tighten pockets) it decreases
the height (the distance from the base to the back of the pocket) by half of what you decrease the base. That decrease is what
you'll loose in shelf depth.

So if that's true, going from a 5 inch pocket to a 4.5 inch, you loose 1/4 inch in shelf depth, which I suppose
is what I'm seeing, my table probably shipped with 5 inch pockets and 1.5 inch shelf.
Also, if you do increase the depth of the subrail, I believe 1/8 will get you back that 1/4 inch of shelf depth.
Then again, I'm no math wizard, just know how to use google.

 

[Lawnboy77]

So I did some searching on math sites and if I'm interpreting it correctly, a pocket can be seen as an
isosceles right triangle meaning it has two corners at 45 degrees (the points) and one at 90. Call the line between the points
the base and the 90 degree the back of the pocket.

From the calculators they have it appears that if you make the base between the two 45s (points) less (tighten pockets) it decreases
the height (the distance from the base to the back of the pocket) by half of what you decrease the base. That decrease is what
you'll loose in shelf depth.

So if that's true, going from a 5 inch pocket to a 4.5 inch, you loose 1/4 inch in shelf depth, which I suppose
is what I'm seeing, my table probably shipped with 5 inch pockets and 1.5 inch shelf.
Also, if you do increase the depth of the subrail, I believe 1/8 will get you back that 1/4 inch of shelf depth.
Then again, I'm no math wizard, just know how to use google.

I think you are spot-on! This subject came up in the mechanic’s forum a couple of years ago and I remember calculating that loss of shelf on my Anniversary going from 5” to 4.5” pockets at about the same as you, a 1/4” loss.

 

[coolidge]

I think you are spot-on! This subject came up in the mechanic’s forum a couple of years ago and I remember calculating that loss of shelf on my Anniversary going from 5” to 4.5” pockets at about the same as you, a 1/4” loss.

Wouldn't it be easier to add 1/4" of shelf vs mucking with the rails? The pocket is still plenty large enough for the ball to drop. I could knock that out with my 3D printer.