Does a soft tip maintain longer contact with the cueball compared to a hard tip? If so, how does this affect accuracy?
Tip Function
- Thread starter CoolChicky
- Start date
CoolChicky said:
This is just my opinion but I think the soft tip gives a little on impact allowing the tip to affect the ball right where you hit it, a hard tip does not give and therefore your grip and bridge control become more important in maintaining accuracy. So in short....Yes,but the longer amount of time that it's in contact is hardly measurable.
Terry
A soft tip "deforms" when it contacts the cue ball. Sort of like how you can press your finger into a balloon. A hard tip does not deform as much. Like how you can't press your finger into a baseball very much.
It seems to me a very soft tip will get better contact with the cue ball. Shots like draw are easier to do with a very soft tip if you ask me.
*HOWEVER*.... If you shoot just one fast shot with a very soft tip, you will have a "concave dent" in your tip! Then you will need to reshape it. And do this several times during a game, then many times in one evening, then you will need to replace the tip because there is nothing left!
Also Predator says that a dime shaped tip will have less cue ball deflection. So therefore it is important to *always* maintain the same shape on your tip. If you don't, then get a new tip installed which has a different shape, then it will deflect the cue ball differently, you will need to learn to aim differently to use the new tip (when using english).
And this is quite common. Someone gets a new cue or a new tip installed, then they can't play like they did before.
I use a dime shaped Moori Q (hard) tip and I always keep it a dime shape. Then I replace it with the same tip and same shape. My new tip plays exactly the same as my old tip. And a hard tip keeps its shape the longest, so I don't need to re-shape it very often - thus the tip lasts longer. And I don't want to be re-shaping my tip in the middle of a game or in the middle of a tournament.
And I think that as a tip is used, it becomes hard after many fast shots. So a soft tip will become hard with use and a medium tip will become hard with use. This is not good as you start out with a tip which then changes its playing characteristics. So might as well start out with a hard tip from the get-go unless you never shoot any fast hard shots.
So far as aiming, I think that is the "indian" and not the "arrow" which controls that.
It seems to me a very soft tip will get better contact with the cue ball. Shots like draw are easier to do with a very soft tip if you ask me.
*HOWEVER*.... If you shoot just one fast shot with a very soft tip, you will have a "concave dent" in your tip! Then you will need to reshape it. And do this several times during a game, then many times in one evening, then you will need to replace the tip because there is nothing left!
Also Predator says that a dime shaped tip will have less cue ball deflection. So therefore it is important to *always* maintain the same shape on your tip. If you don't, then get a new tip installed which has a different shape, then it will deflect the cue ball differently, you will need to learn to aim differently to use the new tip (when using english).
And this is quite common. Someone gets a new cue or a new tip installed, then they can't play like they did before.
I use a dime shaped Moori Q (hard) tip and I always keep it a dime shape. Then I replace it with the same tip and same shape. My new tip plays exactly the same as my old tip. And a hard tip keeps its shape the longest, so I don't need to re-shape it very often - thus the tip lasts longer. And I don't want to be re-shaping my tip in the middle of a game or in the middle of a tournament.
And I think that as a tip is used, it becomes hard after many fast shots. So a soft tip will become hard with use and a medium tip will become hard with use. This is not good as you start out with a tip which then changes its playing characteristics. So might as well start out with a hard tip from the get-go unless you never shoot any fast hard shots.
So far as aiming, I think that is the "indian" and not the "arrow" which controls that.
weather a soft tip stays on longer, is up for debate. the focus i want to put here is this, i play with a triangle tip, which is 75% hard, 25% medium, anyway, i prefer to keep it shaped somewhere between flat and a nichol, pardon my spelling, anyhow, most people do not realise that when a tip that's on the harder side is left on the flatish side, the control you have with it, is outstanding! the rounder the tip, the less control you will have over speed.
CoolChicky said:
Yes, it does. The effect on accuracy is negligible at best. The contact is more prolonged, and more importantly, the tip forms more to the surface of the cue-ball, giving more grip, and making it easier to put more spin on the cue ball, in my opinion (and of course the down side is re-shaping more frequently, and a lot of people don't like the feel). But the contact is still too short to affect accuracy.
-Andrew
The problem with soft tips.....
The problem with soft tips has already been mentioned and that is their liklihood to compress. Over time they will compress and even with reshaping they will remain compressed. So, in effect if you play more than a coupple of times a week for a couple of hours, you better be able and willing to replace your tip every three to four weeks to maintain the feel and advantages of a softer tip.
Softer tips will make it easier to get more spin without deviating as far from center as a hard tip, but for people who play often, it is better to use a hard tip or be prapared to learn how to replace tips often and well.
The problem with soft tips has already been mentioned and that is their liklihood to compress. Over time they will compress and even with reshaping they will remain compressed. So, in effect if you play more than a coupple of times a week for a couple of hours, you better be able and willing to replace your tip every three to four weeks to maintain the feel and advantages of a softer tip.
Softer tips will make it easier to get more spin without deviating as far from center as a hard tip, but for people who play often, it is better to use a hard tip or be prapared to learn how to replace tips often and well.
I would say a harder tip can create more speed. I believe this is why the phenolic tips were created for break cues.DoomCue said:
DoomCue said:
If you watch the following high speed video of a draw shot and the tip contacting the cue ball, you will see the tip dent in a little. I assume this was a medium tip? But a softer tim will "squish" in more. So I think you can use more extreme english on the cue ball with a softer tip without a miscue (still maintain contact with the cue ball) -vs- a hard tip.
And a good example of this is a very very hard phenolic tip used on breaking cues. If you try to use much of any english, you get a miscue. The very hard tip is not gripping the cue ball.
With my own personal testing (and I am not a robot!), it seemed to me I could get more extreme english with a very soft tip - go a bit further out from center than with a hard tip and not miscue. So therefore more spin.
But also it seems to me a hard pigskin (Moori) tip works just as well as a soft pig skin tip. So I get excellent contact - english/follow/draw with my Moori Q. But note I lightly sand the tip with a dime shaped sandpaper shaper about once a week, so I always have a fresh surface (no slick spots) on the tip.
High speed video...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-38.htm
Oops! thought you meant speed of spin on ball...
So far as speed = how fast can you get the cue ball traveling, yes a very very hard phenolic tip will be the fastest.
And with a very soft tip and a fast hard shot, the cue ball just fizzles! Runs out of gas! I think this is because the tip dents in so much, it is acting like a shock absorber.
So it is quite difficult to shoot with enough speed to even make a long bank shot with a very soft tip (brand new not used before).
So far as speed = how fast can you get the cue ball traveling, yes a very very hard phenolic tip will be the fastest.
And with a very soft tip and a fast hard shot, the cue ball just fizzles! Runs out of gas! I think this is because the tip dents in so much, it is acting like a shock absorber.
So it is quite difficult to shoot with enough speed to even make a long bank shot with a very soft tip (brand new not used before).
CoolChicky said:
yes.
It doesn't.
There are a number of misconceptions about this.
MISCONCEPTION 1: *a soft tip has a bigger contact area and therefore grips the ball better*
This is false. There is a bigger contact area, but there is less force on each little piece of that. It works out to the same amount of grip--more force over less area versus less force over more area.
MISCONCEPTION 2: *a hard tip transfers more energy to the cueball.*
This is generally false. A soft tip deforms more, but both soft and hard tips can transfer that deformation energy back to the cueball.
MISCONCEPTION 3: *a soft tip gives more action or spin (according to some) a hard tip gives more action (according to others).
These are false. What the cueball cares about is the impulse it feels, and the impulse is the area under the force versus time curve. This curve will be narrow and peaked for a hard tip and lower and wider for a soft tip. But the area underneath will be the same.
********************
some small-effect caveats
misconception 1 caveat : if chalk is applied unevenly, then a hard tip might increase the chance of a miscue on sidespin shots. Suppose for a given offset a miscue will occur whenever half or more of the contact surface has no chalk. If there are little 1 mm diameter circles of chalkless areas on the tips, a soft tip with its big contact is less likely to get bitten by these.
misconception 3 caveat: A soft tip may give slightly more spin for a given offset. Imagine a hard tip contacting a cueball on a sidespin shot with a 10 mm offset. During the 1 ms or so the tip is on the ball, the ball begins to rotate. When the ball leaves the tip, the offset might be 11 mm instead of 10. The *effective* offset, the one that determines the spin-to-speed ratio for the cueball might be the halfway mark, 10.5 mm. Now do the same shot with a soft tip. It stays on the ball a little longer. So it may start at 10 mm and end at 11.5 mm. It's *effective* offset might then be 10.75 mm, slightly bigger than the 10.5 mm of the hard tip. This is a small effect that Bob jewett has talked about. I think to a reasonably dood approximation you can ignore it.
mike page
fargo
mikepage said:
This one is easy to check out for yourself.
Set up a shot off the short rail, shooting a cue ball down table. Bridge off the rail, and set the length of stroke to say three inches from the tip of the tip to the cue ball edge. Just let your elbow fall and let the tip of the cue hit at whatever speed comes naturally. You want to practice this several times first to get the feel of a repeatable stroke. So, shoot that cue ball with that 3 inch bridge several times. If you have another shaft for your cue that is identical to the first one but has a hard tip on it, do the exact same shot as the first one. I GUARANTEE the cue ball will go farther when shooting with the hard tip.
Maybe you don't have two shafts with the two different tips. Take if from me, I've played around with this sort of thing a lot. On the same shaft I've used Moori softs (slow), mediums, and hards (quick). They play very differently, and if you are used to shooting with a soft and swap on a hard, the tendencey will be for you to over shoot on every shot until you adjust your stroke. It's most noticeable on the really soft shots.
Still doubtful?
Get a very soft tip and break with it. Now do the same with a super hard phenolic tip. You tell me the soft tip and the phenolic play the same.
And by the way, that phenolic tip all chalked up will miscue so much more easily...
Flex
Flex <----- wonders if he's beating a dead horse, or what?
May I suggest that the amount of spin you can get should not be the determining factor of what tip you use. How often do you need that much spin? Yes it comes up but, hopefully is it something someone else left you, not something you did to yourself.
I want to start using a harder tip, but it is going to be a big transition. You all have hit all around the reason I'm talking about but I didn't see anyone really say it.
Which gives you the smoothest, straightest and most controlled striking of the cue ball, when you stoke hard or soft? When you stoke soft, of course. Someone suggested that a harder tip doesn't give you more speed with the same stroke. Then someone corrected them using the phenolic tip to show this. Yes, a harder tip definitely give more speed. Do you want more speed? Sure do. That means you can stroke slower. So on any given shot with a harder tip you can take a slower stroke and get the same speed thus you can be more accurate because you have slowed down your stroke some. Slower stroke, better control. I'll take that over more available spin (if a softer tip even gives more spin).
I want to start using a harder tip, but it is going to be a big transition. You all have hit all around the reason I'm talking about but I didn't see anyone really say it.
Which gives you the smoothest, straightest and most controlled striking of the cue ball, when you stoke hard or soft? When you stoke soft, of course. Someone suggested that a harder tip doesn't give you more speed with the same stroke. Then someone corrected them using the phenolic tip to show this. Yes, a harder tip definitely give more speed. Do you want more speed? Sure do. That means you can stroke slower. So on any given shot with a harder tip you can take a slower stroke and get the same speed thus you can be more accurate because you have slowed down your stroke some. Slower stroke, better control. I'll take that over more available spin (if a softer tip even gives more spin).
mikepage said:
When you say "It works out to the same amount of grip--more force over less area versus less force over more area", that implies identical surface dynamics (the inherent coefficient of friction for the hard and soft tips), and I don't think you have that. Saying a softer tip doesn't grip the cueball better is like saying softer tires won't get you more grip for a race car. The softer tip inherently grips more, contact area vs. force distribution be damned.
When you say "both soft and hard tips can transfer that deformation energy back to the cueball", I think you're wrong. The softer the tip, the less of its deformation energy gets transfered back to the ball. It does spring back into shape, but the harder one springs back a lot quicker, meaning more of this "spring" occurs while the cue ball is still there to feel it.
I may concede that a softer tip gives no more spin than a hard tip for a given offset, but because misconception #1 is not a misconception at all in my opinion, greater tip offsets are feasible with a softer tip.
You reference valid physics in each of your points, but I disagree with all of your conclusions because of faulty assumptions I think you're making.
-Andrew
CoolChicky said:
I don't know about contact time but with a harder tip you get a better and more predictable reaction from the cue ball. I play a lot of one pocket which is a close up game. You make a lot of shots from only a few inches away and with low force. With a hard tip I can just tap a shot and pull the cue ball back or spin it with almost no effort. I have found with a soft tip the cue ball does not react hardly at all on shots like these. I think it is because the hard tip causes more of the force into the cue ball and the tip does not absorb as much of it, the reaction is immediate and easier to control. I don't even feel compelled to qualify my answer with an IMO because I know this for a fact from my own experience. The reaction difference on long hard shots may not be as dramatic as it is on close up shots but I would be inclined to think the harder tip would still have more effect on the cue ball.
Andrew Manning said:
The relevant coefficient of friction is between the chalk and the ball, not between the leather of the tip and the chalk.
This comes up a lot and it's a red herring. The force that accelerates a car isn't really a friction force between the rubber and the road; the force is larger for wider tires because it's a shear force. The rubber at the surface is pulling away from the rubber just above it and so on. It's a special rubber thing. Static friction forces don't work that way. For static friction, like we have here, the frictional force is independent of the area of contact.
It is the amount of time each spring takes to compress and decompress that determines the contact times. That's why the soft tip has a longer contact time. Either collision can be and is somewhat inelastic. There's no a priori reason to believe collision with a soft tip is more inelastic than with a hard tip.
I've tried to measure distance a ball goes for an identical hit for different tips. I can't measure a difference. I then took several shafts with different tip hardnesses and bounced them off of slate from a fixed height. I measured the heights they bounced to. There were differences, but the differences really had no correlation with the tip hardnesses. In fact the one that transferred the most energy back had a soft tip. I included a bungee tip in this test.
mike page
fargo
Flex said:
I would say it's *not* easy to check out for yourself. I've tried. I've tried with different shafts (tips) on the same butt hanging by string--so thhat I can pull the stick back and let it swing from the same spots. These are not esasy experiments to do carefully, imo. As I've said before, I've not been able to measure a relation between tip hardness and energy transfer.
I'm not trying to be obstinate. I'm listening to people's arguments.
mike page
fargo
mikepage said:
There can be quite a difference between different tips labeled "soft", as well as those labeled "hard."
That may explain some of the difficulty measuring these things. However, for a given brand of tip, say Moori, or Talisman, going from the tip each labels as soft or hard and comparing the hit and so on, there is no doubt they play differently and a hard tip will send the cue ball further on any given shot. An exception may occur if the soft tip has been compressed in a vise, or has been repeatedly pounded for instance by breaking with it.
Whether dropping a shaft with tip attached against a slate from a specified distance can prove or disprove what happens to the cue ball is something different. Just compare any "soft" tip to a phenolic one and see what happens.
Flex
8-ball bernie said:
WTF!?!?............
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