Tip shape

[dquarasr]

Not sure if I should post this here or in the main forum. Trying here first.

Does tip shape influence accuracy?

I’ve played with a vintage Adam for a couple of years now. A few months ago I found another Adam for $100.

The older cue (right) is slightly narrower. 12.7mm vs 13.2.

The shape of the 12.7 is much rounder, in particular near the outer edges, than the 13.2.

The 12.7 is a Kamikaze Elite Medium; the 13.2 a soft.

I understand that a less experienced player such as myself may be more accurate with a wider tip. I am SO much more confident and accurate with the 13.2. For reference of my ability, this week I moved up to APA SL6, after six weeks of play this session. I am 4-0 in individual Scotch Doubles Winning 91.67% of points available, having gone rackless two weeks in a row. Our team is also undefeated in Scotch Doubles matches.

So, is my accuracy and confidence with the 13.2 borne of the wider tip, or is the much rounder shape contributing to lower accuracy with the 12.7?

Asked another way, do you all think shaping the 12.7 like the 13.2 will increase my accuracy (assuming my confidence is not all just in my head)? Thanks!

 

[bbb]

i am not an instructor but i think the larger tip is more forgiving not more accurate
personally i dont think the 2 shapes make a difference in your case

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Does tip shape influence accuracy?

Not if the tip's curvature is a normal regular arc within the normal range of tip curvatures (somewhere between a quarter and dime radius).

...is my accuracy and confidence with the 13.2 borne of the wider tip, or is the much rounder shape contributing to lower accuracy with the 12.7?

Tip width and curvature don't directly affect accuracy - unless you're not yet familiar with them or let them affect your confidence.

pj
chgo

 

[Zerksies]

People nerd out on this topic and will tell you, Their is virtually no differences between contact points on a nickel versus a dime. or come up with some bullshit statistic out of nowhere’s. Also the same people will come up with BS on shaft size too.

 

[dquarasr]

Not if the tip's curvature is a normal regular arc within the normal range of tip curvatures (somewhere between a quarter and dime radius).


Tip width and curvature don't directly affect accuracy - unless you're not yet familiar with them or let them affect your confidence.

pj
chgo

Thanks for responding. You can see from the photo. The newer cue is about a nickel radius, the older about a dime.

 

[dquarasr]

People nerd out on this topic and will tell you, Their is virtually no differences between contact points on a nickel versus a dime. or come up with some bullshit statistic out of nowhere’s. Also the same people will come up with BS on shaft size too.

Well then it’s either all in my head or it might be because one is soft and the other a medium. I wouldn’t be surprised if that, too, has negligible influence.

 

[Zerksies]

Well then it’s either all in my head or it might be because one is soft and the other a medium. I wouldn’t be surprised if that, too, has negligible influence.

I’d be in agreement. That shaft diameter does have an effect on play. Also tip shape too. I get more action/spin on a 12.25mm shaft versus a 13mm. But pocketing gets easier with a wider tip. Personally I’ve settled on a 12.5. But the nerds will say otherwise.I tried a dime shape a few weeks ago and I just didn’t like the feel of it so I’m staying on a nickel radius. I’ll bring up xyz cue maker sells shafts in various sizes, And the nerds will just say it’s marketing. But several manufacturers state the same thing.

So the easiest answer is those who can’t teach or nerd. Pool is something that has a lot of “feel” to it, something you just can’t nerd out on

 

[Patrick Johnson]

People nerd out on this topic and will tell you, Their is virtually no differences between contact points on a nickel versus a dime. or come up with some bullshit statistic out of nowhere’s. Also the same people will come up with BS on shaft size too.

Here's a scale drawing of nickel and dime curvatures on the same stick contacting the cue ball at 1/3, 2/3 and maximum offset. It's plain to see that the contact points for the dime and nickel shapes (blue and red lines) are virtually identical even at maximum offset.

pj <- unless our eyes are bullshitting us
chgo

 

[bbb]

Pj
do you agree larger tips are more forgiving ?
meaning slight off center hits dont produce the same effects?

 

[dquarasr]

Here's a scale drawing of nickel and dime curvatures on the same stick contacting the cue ball at 1/3, 2/3 and maximum offset. It's plain to see that the contact points for the dime and nickel shapes (blue and red lines) are virtually identical even at maximum offset.

pj <- unless our eyes are bullshitting us
chgo

View attachment 665220

Excellent diagram. It must be in my head. I just played alternating a few racks between the cues. Once I got my head on straight and focused there wasn’t any perceptible difference. So I suppose I’ve answered my own question.

I should probably come here with a question, type it in, don’t post it, then wait a day or so to see if I can figure it out on my own. In fact, that’s what I promise to do. I’ll only post when I’ve exhausted ideas and search/research on my own.

Thanks, all.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Pj
do you agree larger tips are more forgiving ?
meaning slight off center hits dont produce the same effects?

Not larger tips, but flatter tips can be slightly more forgiving with slightly off center hits. In fact, some players purposely shape their tips to be flatter in the center (and more rounded off center) for that reason. I think the small amount of benefit is unnecessary with a decent stroke and not worth coping with the flat spot when applying side spin.

pj
chgo

 

[SmoothStroke]

I use a 12.75 tapered shaft because that's what feels best sliding through my fingers.
I don't have a clue, nor do I care, what shape my tip is. I maintain it perfectly to a fault.
It fits my shaft and ferrule like tailored suit.
I would call the shape, Moon Phase Waxing Crescent. The last time I miscued was, I can't remember.
My break tip is flat, I just smash it on the floor and burnish it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I would call the shape, Moon Phase Waxing Crescent.

Now my dime shape seems so common.

My break tip is flat, I just smash it on the floor and burnish it.

I can see how break tips can be better flat. If flattening hardens them that could increase energy transfer too.

pj
chgo

 

[Zerksies]

Here's a scale drawing of nickel and dime curvatures on the same stick contacting the cue ball at 1/3, 2/3 and maximum offset. It's plain to see that the contact points for the dime and nickel shapes (blue and red lines) are virtually identical even at maximum offset.

pj <- unless our eyes are bullshitting us
chgo

View attachment 665220

Still different. It’s not the same. More feel then Nerding out

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Still different.

Smaller than any stroke's margin of error. It can't possibly make a difference.

Of course its best to use the tip you like, whatever the reason.

pj
chgo

 

[Zerksies]

Smaller than any stroke's margin of error. It can't possibly make a difference.

Of course its best to use the tip you like, whatever the reason.

pj
chgo

Your implying that they are using the center of the tip For striking a ball. It’s a big tip. And you can use more then just the center of a tip

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Your implying that they are using the center of the tip For striking a ball. It’s a big tip. And you can use more then just the center of a tip

Does the drawing look like using only the center of the tip? The largest possible difference, at the farthest offset from center, is less than 1mm (1/25").

pj
chgo

 

[phreaticus]

Does the drawing look like using only the center of the tip? The largest possible difference, at the farthest offset from center, is less than 1mm (1/25").

pj
chgo

I think in the game of pool 1mm (or 4%, per your calcs) is not a negligible amount. I agree its well within the envelope of many other variables in our stroke etc, but the human vision & touch are incredibly sensitive. For example, I think most experienced folks can easily sense 1/25” variance in shaft taper or butt/grip thickness also. Makes good sense to me that a refined player can be sensitive to these minor variances in tip shape/size.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

.., I think most experienced folks can easily sense 1/25” variance in shaft taper or butt/grip thickness also. Makes good sense to me that a refined player can be sensitive to these minor variances in tip shape/size.

Not to 1/25” (1mm) difference in CB contact point. If we try to hit the same CB point a bunch of times our “shot group” will be at least a few mm wide.

pj
chgo

 

[phreaticus]

Not to 1/25” (1mm) difference in CB contact point. If we try to hit the same CB point a bunch of times our “shot group” will be at least a few mm wide.

pj
chgo

You seem to have it all figured out.