tip technology - hardness at center different from hardness at edges

smoochie

NotLikeThis
I've seen this in some new designed tips for example TOAM fusion and ZAN. Probably some more have designed such tips where the companies states that the tip is engineered to have softer edges and in the middle they are a bit harder. They claim that the design of harder center gives more power transmission and the softer edges for maximum control? I really don't know how they came up with that claim.

Bob Meucci on the other hand has an old lesson video available on YouTube from 2015, in that video he speaks of tip ultimate shape and he also spoke during the video about how it is beneficial to have a harder edges and softer center which is in his explanation the best hardness of a tip, he claims what one can do is to pound the edges hard after installation.

So you can see where I am going with this, both of these guys gave claims (The companies harder center and soft edges, Bob harder edges and soft center) claiming that it is better but they have opposing views. My question for you guys, do you get why would one want one or the other? And is it really beneficial if you have tried one.

If yes, then which one is the correct claim.

P.S. Here's the video from where bob talks about the shape and hardness, go to the 3:20 in the video.
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Taom Fusion is very nice tip. It is like pimped Elkmaster IMHO. I use Elks myself.
I might put one for testing more to myself soon. I have many friends who use it and I like how it plays.
Zan Hybrid is probably most used tip on Finland atm. I don´t myself like it so much as Fusion or Elkmaster but it is also very good tip.
So i am thinking they are way to go. :)
 

Konrad

Your wushu is weak!
I have no real answer for you except you’ll probably get people on both sides of this fence. If the Toam is really a “pimped out elkmaster” like poolmanis said. That tip sounds good and worth a try. How much are they?…

A lot of people like a nickel radius tip and Meucci said a dime shaped was best. He was worried about deflection. While Toam is worried about power and spin. So pick your poison. This is like comparing LD shafts to regular shafts but now it’s tips. Crazy how many options there are in pool gear these days.
 
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MSchaffer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe Jaden's 'On Target' tips utilized some of these ideas (I can't remember if his were soft center or hard center). Not sure if he still has those tips anymore, or if I have him confused with someone else.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Are the edges of the tip not harder and the center softer naturally because the tip is thickest at the center and thinner on the edges??? Generally from what I have experienced is that the thinner the tip is the harder it feels.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Zan griphard is perfect for me, but I play the edges of the tip.
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
I've seen this in some new designed tips for example TOAM fusion and ZAN. Probably some more have designed such tips where the companies states that the tip is engineered to have softer edges and in the middle they are a bit harder. They claim that the design of harder center gives more power transmission and the softer edges for maximum control? I really don't know how they came up with that claim.

Bob Meucci on the other hand has an old lesson video available on YouTube from 2015, in that video he speaks of tip ultimate shape and he also spoke during the video about how it is beneficial to have a harder edges and softer center which is in his explanation the best hardness of a tip, he claims what one can do is to pound the edges hard after installation.

So you can see where I am going with this, both of these guys gave claims (The companies harder center and soft edges, Bob harder edges and soft center) claiming that it is better but they have opposing views. My question for you guys, do you get why would one want one or the other? And is it really beneficial if you have tried one.

If yes, then which one is the correct claim.

P.S. Here's the video from where bob talks about the shape and hardness, go to the 3:20 in the video.
I had gotten patents of both designs and both are good for different things.

Jaden
 
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Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
I don't want to get into more arguments because me and Dr. Dave kind of had gotten into it over this. I had sent Dr. Dave a couple of my tips to test not knowing how he planned on testing them.

The soft core tips actually lower deflection for the vast majority of shots, it does this by deforming the tip towards the softer core, mimicking a closer to center hit. So the effective position of the shot is changed or rather the stress is translated closer to the center of the shaft. Unfortunately, Dave tried to minimize the variables by doing ALL testing with a hard shot; this led to greater compression of the ends relative to the core minimizing the effect.

I had also sent some tips to great white tips and he confirmed my results. I had some materials issues(couldn't guarantee accetpable life of tip without failure) and haven't been able to bring them to market yet.

As far as the harder core tips, they do exactly that, they provide better energy transfer hit closer to center by using a harder material, but that harder material makes miscuing more common if you hit out towards the edges, by using a softer material for the edges, you allow for better grip while using draw, top and sidespin while still getting better energy transfer closer to center where miscues are impossible.

Jaden
 

WildWing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When tanning and pressing a tip, how would it get harder in the center, and softer on the edges?

I think, another of many advertising gimmicks, not real. As you play a tip, it gets the same hardness everywhere.

All the best,
WW
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
When tanning and pressing a tip, how would it get harder in the center, and softer on the edges?

I think, another of many advertising gimmicks, not real. As you play a tip, it gets the same hardness everywhere.

All the best,
WW
Not an advertising gimmick. I machined a piece of a harder material (type of material is a trade secret) and drilled a hole in the middle of a leather tip the same size so that the machined piece acted as a backing of the tip and had a rod that went through the center of the leather. When glued in place and machined with a radius there is no real transition and it works brilliantly. It's not a marketing gimmick, but they are much more expensive to make than a traditional layered leather tip.

Jaden

p.s. as far as having a soft core tip, that's a process I'm keeping to myself until I've had the opportunity to more fully test. As stated the original design had materials issues and longevity wasn't where it should be.
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
I've done many pool related inventions, none of which are gimmicks. One that I hope to be releasing soon is called "The Perfect Grip". It allows you to grip as hard as you like while still allowing the weight of the cue to do the work. I used a prototype of it for several years until it grew legs one day. Max Eberle got to see it up close and was interested in one that was custom fit to a person's grip (the prototype was fit to MY grip), which is a possibility for the future.

Jaden
 
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Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

Not an advertising gimmick. I machined a piece of a harder material (type of material is a trade secret) and drilled a hole in the middle of a leather tip the same size so that the machined piece acted as a backing of the tip and had a rod that went through the center of the leather. When glued in place and machined with a radius there is no real transition and it works brilliantly. It's not a marketing gimmick, but they are much more expensive to make than a traditional layered leather tip.

Jaden

p.s. as far as having a soft core tip, that's a process I'm keeping to myself until I've had the opportunity to more fully test. As stated the original design had materials issues and longevity wasn't where it should be.
This is all starting to sound like the search for the Golden Fleece. How many champions over the many decades
have been concerned about the density/hardness of the tip on their cues…in the middle versus its outside edges?

Folks, it’s like thinking a certain brand of chalk will make you shoot better. Sure, until the placebo effect wears off
and you realize it really doesn’t matter. This sure sounds like a lot of pool jabberwocky and does anyone really care?

Proper chalking and cue tip maintenance is so much more important than becoming fascinated and distracted with
topics like this which seems pretty ludicrous in my estimation. I suppose next is range fed pig all natural leather tips
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member


This is all starting to sound like the search for the Golden Fleece. How many champions over the many decades
have been concerned about the density/hardness of the tip on their cues…in the middle versus its outside edges?

Folks, it’s like thinking a certain brand of chalk will make you shoot better. Sure, until the placebo effect wears off
and you realize it really doesn’t matter. This sure sounds like a lot of pool jabberwocky and does anyone really care?

Proper chalking and cue tip maintenance is so much more important than becoming fascinated and distracted with
topics like this which seems pretty ludicrous in my estimation. I suppose next is range fed pig all natural leather tips

With this stupid ass attitude, we wouldn't have EVER had ld shafts, carbon fiber shafts, layered tips, or ANYTHING that has helped players and the game advance.

Why not still have ivory balls...they worrkkd jst fine at the trn of da cntry/...

Jaden
 

CaleAYS

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I could be wrong here or failing to understand the original post, but Zan Hybrid doesn’t have a harder center and softer edges. Ive used them for awhile and I’m pretty sure it’s just the bottom couple of layers are a harder leather than the rest of the tip. I guess it makes the hit feel firmer without adding hardness. I’m not gonna debate marketing stuff but Zan make great tips imo. The only tip I know of that sounds like what is described in the original post is the Tiger icebreaker maybe. It has a leather center surrounded by phenolic from what I understand.
 

Bavafongoul

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No. It is common sense. You want the tip to have the same consistency, density, hardness or whatever
you prefer to refer to this as. Doesn’t matter if it’s dead center or the outer perimeter of the tip’s surface.
This ensures the most consistent feel on your stroke. The only difference is the tip diameter and hardness.

Most mortals are not capable of always striking the tip dead center where it would be different than its
outer perimeter. Therefore, you’d get a combination of both hardness compositions sometimes and other
times not so much. This is just my opinion but consistency is just about the most important ingredient in
becoming a better player. For me, that includes my equipment, i.e., cues. Chalk + Tip = Friction…Nuf Ced.
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
the bad and average golfers are always looking for the new putter, driver, golf ball, glove etc, even new special tees. and the good golfers have the same set of clubs for years and play well because they hit the ball where they are aiming.

the bad and average pool player is looking for better chalk, tips, shafts, gloves, and the better pool players just play with the stick that they feel good with for years, and stick on a tip and play well, because they hit the ball where they are aiming.
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
the bad and average golfers are always looking for the new putter, driver, golf ball, glove etc, even new special tees. and the good golfers have the same set of clubs for years and play well because they hit the ball where they are aiming.

the bad and average pool player is looking for better chalk, tips, shafts, gloves, and the better pool players just play with the stick that they feel good with for years, and stick on a tip and play well, because they hit the ball where they are aiming.
This is true to an extent; however, many of those players get left behind by the new generation that end up playing better with the new technology. Golfers average drives have gone up, and it's not because the players are that much better, it has a lot to do with better equipment. Better balls, better shafts, better club heads and materials.

Is there a learning curve for innovative technologies? yes... Are some players going to be incapable of adjusting and will be better off staying with what they know? Absolutely... But to dismiss new technologies as faddish or marketing B.S. is a huge mistake.

Besides, guess what??? There are a hell of a lot more average players trying to find something to help them improve than there are great players who don't need to improve.

JAden
 

maha

from way back when
Silver Member
yes and the average players are looking for something to improve their game that doesnt involve improving their game through hard work..

the technology may improve ones game. but usually hampers ones game until they are good enough to use the new technology.
 
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