TOI trouble

B

BullBuchanan

Registered
I've been practicing TOI since the first of the month, and I've watched the entire PPV about 5 times, while rewatching certain sections, Like CJ's runs a bit more. Although I've noticed a vast improvement on my low-percentage shots (I can cut the 8 ball on the foot with the cue on the head about 3/5 times), I'm really suffering on higher-percentage shots that I often play with a slower speed. To the guys at the poolhall, I've heard multiple times I need to slow my stroke way down. Sometimes I explain to them I'm trying out something new and they look at me with bewilderment, and other times I just say ok, and go on.

The real issue here is that my overall game has suffered quite a bit, as I've exclusively used the system since the first, as I wanted to give it a fair shake and not deviate from the system.

If I could break down my problems and concerns into something tangible, it would be as follows.

Problem #1: Floating the cue
Following CJ's recommended speed from the PPV, I find that a lot of the time, my cue ball is in no way acting as heavy as his. It often goes several rails. I have to believe this is in someway related to my stroke, or maybe I'm not shifting correctly for TOI. I've experienced some success by drastically shortening my backswing and gripping the top of my wrap to take off power without reducing speed, but I have no idea if it's correct or not.

Problem #2: Using The Same Speed on Almost all shots
CJ advocates for this highly, although it appears that at least 3 different speeds are used in the PPV. Standard, Hard(cut on the 4 in the side in the 9 ball run), and soft (cut on the 7 in the "killing the cue" section). While this problem may be largely solved by fixing the first, I found the PPV lacking when it came to any explanation for how CJ was going to hit the ball. I play a lot on barboxes, and I find that situations where a softer speed would be required are much more common.

Problem #3 Relationship between TOI and the angles that need to be created.
Throughout the video, there aren't many examples where you get to see how far CJ is going over on the cue. It's mostly limited to "a touch" or "about a tip". I understand that CJ says you have to calibrate because he can't know my stroke speed and the way I envision the ball, but not being able to see his personal relationship of tip to cue ball makes it hard for me to understand how the line from the OB to the short side of the pocket relates to the amount of TOI.

This lack of understanding causes me to miss relatively often on very slight cuts, that I would usually make 99%-100% of the time.

I'm a relatively new player (I started in August), but I have taken my game and practice extremely seriously(20-30 hours of play per week). I've worked with some more knowledgeable players at my local hall, and have had problems with my stroke corrected, though I know that I still have some, or at the least lack consistency in applying the correct approach all the time.

I apologize for the wall of text, but I really want this system to work for me, as I've reached a wall with being able to use Ghost Ball as I walk around the table back to my spot. I've experienced some eye-opening moments with TOI, but I haven't felt like it's "clicked" for me yet. As I approach the third week of TOI, I want to make sure I'm making the right time investment for me. I have the desire to get incredibly good at this game, and am willing to dedicate the time to do so, but I also know that I will only have this freedom of time for a few more years, and so I want to ensure that I spend my time as valuably as I can.


As a side note, Danny DeLiberto gives lessons at my local hall. I've been thinking about asking for one, but I'm concerned about whether or not it will be compatible with TOI. It doesn't seem anybody around knows about TOI.

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read this, especially anyone who takes their time to help a hungry wolf get into the hunt.

~Josh
 
I haven't looked too much into TOI, but from what I've heard with any system is if you KNOW you can make a shot the way you are comfortable with and its proven to YOUR style of play, do it. For example, I've tried the frozen ball exercise where you aim for just next to the ball with a lot of inside English to get the cue to spin toward the object ball. Now on most scenerios it works, but if I'm more straight than not, I use my method I've used for years of shooting the ball as if the rail isn't there. No aiming system can give me what years of experience has.

I would say find your rhythm and play first, pin point your problems then try a system. Starting with any system is based on what a beginner should know; the basics. Stance, grip, speed, control, English and patterns.

First over all else is your stroke. Without a stroke you have no game and no system is going to help that.
 
Josh,

Don't so hard on yourself. You have been playing for almost 7 months.

The TOI system is aimed at the intermediate and higher level audiences.

You seem determined.

I would take lessons from Danny first and put in the 20 to 30 hours of his teachings and practice for at least a year. You have a long road to follow.
You cant beat good instruction. Trying to learn all this stuff on your own could take decades.

Using TOI you should stay as close to the mass of the cue ball as possible. Its about the size of a quarter. On close touchy shots I advise that you use a little low and learn how to slide the QB.

Stick with it.

I've been playing for over 50 years and still try to learn as much as possible.

Have fun and enjoy the game. :smile:

John
 
One Pocket John said:
Josh,

Don't so hard on yourself. You have been playing for almost 7 months.

The TOI system is aimed at the intermediate and higher level audiences.

You seem determined.

I would take lessons from Danny first and put in the 20 to 30 hours of his teachings and practice for at least a year. You have a long road to follow.
You cant beat good instruction. Trying to learn all this stuff on your own could take decades.

Using TOI you should stay as close to the mass of the cue ball as possible. Its about the size of a quarter. On close touchy shots I advise that you use a little low and learn how to slide the QB.

Stick with it.

I've been playing for over 50 years and still try to learn as much as possible.

Have fun and enjoy the game. :smile:

John
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, John. I'll talk to Danny and see if I can get a lesson on fundamentals to see what flaws I may have. I've been actively working on it, but it's impossible for me to watch myself play, so it's hard to know if I'm actually doing it right.

Early on I got Jerry Breisath's "A Pool Lesson", and that helped me out immensely with just about every aspect of the game. I also picked up Byrne's New Standard of Pool and Billiards which added a couple of very nifty shots to my game. I'm a big follower of Dr. Dave's materials, as his all-encompassing style really speaks to my "perceptual thinker" learning style. I plan on purchasing his practice VEPPS DVD's once I get a chance. The demo he has regarding Draw control is a really great tool.
 
Speed is somewhat relative...the problem is that at different cut angles, the CB will come off the OB at different speeds, depending on how much energy is spent in the collision...the thicker the hit, the more energy is spent and the slower the CB moves after contact...the thinner, then the less energy lost, and the CB rockets off the contact. You can adjust that with draw ("sliding the CB") and get a little more control. In other cases, especially thinner cuts, you have to adjust your speed. You just have to. What does stay consistent is acceleration...that means the cue stick is speeding up on its way to the CB...that can be from zero to 3 mph or 12 to 18 mph...as long as it's accelerating, you'll have more success at getting the deflection and stun needed for the TOI to work.

On a surprising variation between thick and thinner angles, you get a dead, heavy CB, which is what CJ's looking for. On some hits, you either lose too much energy or not enough to hold the CB where you want. So you have to adjust a little.

I agree, Danny D. is a good choice to get a running start at life as a pool player...wish I lived in Buffalo when I was starting out!:thumbup:
 
It can only be done if you are hitting the cue ball precisely.

BullBuchanan said:
I've been practicing TOI since the first of the month, and I've watched the entire PPV about 5 times, while rewatching certain sections, Like CJ's runs a bit more. Although I've noticed a vast improvement on my low-percentage shots (I can cut the 8 ball on the foot with the cue on the head about 3/5 times), I'm really suffering on higher-percentage shots that I often play with a slower speed. To the guys at the poolhall, I've heard multiple times I need to slow my stroke way down. Sometimes I explain to them I'm trying out something new and they look at me with bewilderment, and other times I just say ok, and go on.

The real issue here is that my overall game has suffered quite a bit, as I've exclusively used the system since the first, as I wanted to give it a fair shake and not deviate from the system.

If I could break down my problems and concerns into something tangible, it would be as follows.

Problem #1: Floating the cue
Following CJ's recommended speed from the PPV, I find that a lot of the time, my cue ball is in no way acting as heavy as his. It often goes several rails. I have to believe this is in someway related to my stroke, or maybe I'm not shifting correctly for TOI. I've experienced some success by drastically shortening my backswing and gripping the top of my wrap to take off power without reducing speed, but I have no idea if it's correct or not.

Problem #2: Using The Same Speed on Almost all shots
CJ advocates for this highly, although it appears that at least 3 different speeds are used in the PPV. Standard, Hard(cut on the 4 in the side in the 9 ball run), and soft (cut on the 7 in the "killing the cue" section). While this problem may be largely solved by fixing the first, I found the PPV lacking when it came to any explanation for how CJ was going to hit the ball. I play a lot on barboxes, and I find that situations where a softer speed would be required are much more common.

Problem #3 Relationship between TOI and the angles that need to be created.
Throughout the video, there aren't many examples where you get to see how far CJ is going over on the cue. It's mostly limited to "a touch" or "about a tip". I understand that CJ says you have to calibrate because he can't know my stroke speed and the way I envision the ball, but not being able to see his personal relationship of tip to cue ball makes it hard for me to understand how the line from the OB to the short side of the pocket relates to the amount of TOI.

This lack of understanding causes me to miss relatively often on very slight cuts, that I would usually make 99%-100% of the time.

I'm a relatively new player (I started in August), but I have taken my game and practice extremely seriously(20-30 hours of play per week). I've worked with some more knowledgeable players at my local hall, and have had problems with my stroke corrected, though I know that I still have some, or at the least lack consistency in applying the correct approach all the time.

I apologize for the wall of text, but I really want this system to work for me, as I've reached a wall with being able to use Ghost Ball as I walk around the table back to my spot. I've experienced some eye-opening moments with TOI, but I haven't felt like it's "clicked" for me yet. As I approach the third week of TOI, I want to make sure I'm making the right time investment for me. I have the desire to get incredibly good at this game, and am willing to dedicate the time to do so, but I also know that I will only have this freedom of time for a few more years, and so I want to ensure that I spend my time as valuably as I can.


As a side note, Danny DeLiberto gives lessons at my local hall. I've been thinking about asking for one, but I'm concerned about whether or not it will be compatible with TOI. It doesn't seem anybody around knows about TOI.

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to read this, especially anyone who takes their time to help a hungry wolf get into the hunt.

~Josh
Click to expand...

Hey there Josh, I understand pool can be very challenging because the margin of error is so small, it's not a "game of inches," it's a game of "hairs". Even intermediate players have trouble hitting the exact place on the cue ball that's required to make shots consistently.

I've given several lessons recently and the thing that's common is how often players are putting unintentional spin on the cue ball. Even if you're off just "a hair" it will transfer enough deviation to miss the shot. You are at a level that's tricky, because when you miss a shot you won't know exactly why this is happening.

Here's what I suggest:

The most important thing that MUST be done as a foundation of your pool game is learning to hit the cue ball straight EVERY TIME. My TOI video takes it for granted you're too this level, that's why it's designed for intermediate and advanced players (even champions can benefit).

My first 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' video goes into detail on pre shot routine, how to establish consistentcy through your distance from the cue ball, body angles and cue/shot line/eye/body relationship.

Try this as a test. Set up the cue ball on the foot spot, and shoot the cue ball straight down table to the center diamond and make it come back and hit your tip. Hit it FIRM, don't baby this shot or it will not represent how accurately you are hitting the cue ball. You also want to develop the habit of accelerating on each shot.

It's not necessarily the shots that need to be the same speed, it's more about your cue speed. You'll find later that you can have a consistent cue speed, yet get different reactions from the cue ball using a "stun" or "kill" stroke. This is mentioned in the TOI video, and It can only be done if you are hitting the cue ball precisely.

Try hitting the cue ball straight up to the middle diamond 10 times making it come straight back to hit the tip. Make sure you can do this at least 7 out of 10 times, then report back and I'll give you a step by step "action plan" on how to improve the quickest way. If you don't feel comfortable doing this on this public forum email me directly here with a PM or at thegameistheteacher@gmail.com and I'll take some time to work with you....I also have a program to do it LIVE if you have computer where I can show you some things in more detail. Play Well, 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley
 
Last edited:
There are some good nuggets in that post. For me especially is the acceleration of the cue. That came up in a recent lesson.

I'm still pocketing shots using TOI and now with bettering my fundamentals confidence is increasing. Am still amazed at how the long cut shots drop in.

Thanks again CJ!
 
CJ Wiley said:
Hey there Josh, I understand pool can be very challenging because the margin of error is so small, it's not a "game of inches," it's a game of "hairs". Even intermediate players have trouble hitting the exact place on the cue ball that's required to make shots consistently.

I've given several lessons recently and the thing that's common is how often players are putting unintentional spin on the cue ball. Even if you're off just "a hair" it will transfer enough deviation to miss the shot. You are at a level that's tricky, because when you miss a shot you won't know exactly why this is happening.

Here's what I suggest:

The most important thing that MUST be done as a foundation of your pool game is learning to hit the cue ball straight EVERY TIME. My TOI video takes it for granted you're too this level, that's why it's designed for intermediate and advanced players (even champions can benefit).

My first 'Ultimate Pool Secrets' video goes into detail on pre shot routine, how to establish consistentcy through your distance from the cue ball, body angles and cue/shot line/eye/body relationship.

Try this as a test. Set up the cue ball on the foot spot, and shoot the cue ball straight down table to the center diamond and make it come back and hit your tip. Hit it FIRM, don't baby this shot or it will not represent how accurately you are hitting the cue ball. You also want to develop the habit of accelerating on each shot.

It's not necessarily the shots that need to be the same speed, it's more about your cue speed. You'll find later that you can have a consistent cue speed, yet get different reactions from the cue ball using a "stun" or "kill" stroke. This is mentioned in the TOI video, and It can only be done if you are hitting the cue ball precisely.

Try hitting the cue ball straight up to the middle diamond 10 times making it come straight back to hit the tip. Make sure you can do this at least 7 out of 10 times, then report back and I'll give you a step by step "action plan" on how to improve the quickest way. If you don't feel comfortable doing this on this public forum email me directly here with a PM or at thegameistheteacher@gmail.com and I'll take some time to work with you....I also have a program to do it LIVE if you have computer where I can show you some things in more detail. Play Well, 'The Game is the Teacher' CJ Wiley
Click to expand...

Thanks for the offer CJ, I'll definitely take you up on that.

I'm very familiar with the drill, though I haven't kept a record of it. I know on a 9 footer when I miss I can sometimes be 2-4 inches off, but I'll need to check to see what my consistency is. I'm guessing my accuracy is better on a barbox, but I'll have to check tonight or tomorrow to be sure.

I'm aware that I'm still in the beginner ranks, but I hope to climb out. Right now I'm at a point where runs of 4-5 balls are common for me, 6 balls isn't out of the question, and I've run 7 balls 3 times. That break and run is still eluding me, though I'll wager if I work to improve my stroke that will become more likely.

Thanks again for your time,

Josh Foss
 
If someone is just a hair off in their cue ball targeting it will influence the ball

frankw said:
There are some good nuggets in that post. For me especially is the acceleration of the cue. That came up in a recent lesson.

I'm still pocketing shots using TOI and now with bettering my fundamentals confidence is increasing. Am still amazed at how the long cut shots drop in.

Thanks again CJ!
Click to expand...

You're welcome....the more various players I train the more I understand how important this TOI Training is to their realization of precise cue ball targeting. I always felt like it was important and now I know it is "the difference that makes the difference."

If someone is just a hair off in their cue ball targeting it will influence the object ball to go off course an inch {or more} on shots over 4' away. This will cause inconsistent misses with no feedback on how to make the necessary adjustments. With the TOI technique this feedback is readily detectable. 'The Game is the Teacher'
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top