TOI without spin.

rubell

rubell

Nick Rubell
Silver Member
Have anyone practiced TOI? How to avoid the cue ball spin?

Here is what I mean.

Logically speaking hitting off center, even a little bit will introduce a force that may cause, if not compensated by some other force the cue ball to spin. So, what is the technique to avoid the spin?

When I make a stroke off center, the cue ball starts spinning. Than more off center or more the speed (to certain degree), than more the spin. I shift, not pivot.
 
rubell said:
Have anyone practiced TOI? How to avoid the cue ball spin?

Here is what I mean.

Logically speaking hitting off center, even a little bit will introduce a force that may cause, if not compensated by some other force the cue ball to spin. So, what is the technique to avoid the spin?

When I make a stroke off center, the cue ball starts spinning. Than more off center or more the speed (to certain degree), than more the spin. I shift, not pivot.
Click to expand...

My experience using TOI... You need to hit hard enough to squirt the CB so it can't spin (or has minimum spin). If it's spinning you can't throw the OB. You can't hit the CB very far off center... but it works IMO.
 
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Ralph Kramden said:
My experience using TOI... You need to hit hard enough to squirt the CB so it can't spin (or has minimum spin). If it's spinning you can't throw the OB. You can't hit the CB very far off center... but it works IMO.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I do not know if I need to worry about it. It spins with frequency probably 0.8-1.4 full rotation per second. Is it too much spin? I also noticed CJ on the video sometimes does not hit hard at all. His stroke is firm, solid but often not hard, just enough to get the cue ball to a new position. At the same time I do see the ball does not spin when he does it.

And yes, I can deflect it to any angle I need, even with a low deflection shaft.
 
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Despite some of the claims on here, it is impossible to hit the cb off center and not have it spin some. The closer to center, the less spin. Also, the closer to center and the longer the distance to the ob, the less spin you can have because you can lose the spin over distance due to friction on the cloth. But, you won't lose much spin due to friction on normal shots.
 
Neil, this is what I noticed too. When the distance is short, then the cue ball spins faster.
 
I had a bit of a revelation yesterday. I have been spinning the CB with english for over 4 decades. I started playing around with TOI right after CJ came out with it & while I saw that it certainly worked is a viable playing method, I had some trouble as I have never given deflection a thought in all the time that I have been playing. My focus has always been on the spin to speed ratio & the swerve aspect.

You do not want to pivot in the conventional sense. I was shifting parallel but was not getting consistent success until CJ advised that I move the butt end first & then follow with the tip end. He thought that I was not really shifting parallel but that I might be pivoting. I don't think that I was.

Anyway, doing what CJ suggested gave a bit of a different visual perspective that certainly helped, What it did was basically get me to use a true feathers 'touch' of inside.

Things were much better, but still not really near to what CJ can do with it. The last time before yesterday I had developed an issue of looking at the CB during the stroke. I did like that as I have always looked at the OB during the stroke. I did not know why I had gravitated to that & could not figure it out. So anyway I finished up that afternoon playing 6 one pocket games where I played my old way without much if any TOI & I did so by looking at the OB during the stroke as I normally do.

Anyway after about 2.5 weeks from that session I went back yesterday & worked on looking at the OB during the TOI stroke. I was back to seeing the OB go into the pocket & back to seeing the reaction of the CB coming off of the OB. Probably like you, my CB is inconsistent regarding coming off with spin or no spin.

Now with all that being said, I'm not exactly sure what spin to which you are referring. If you hit off center there will be spin. If hitting with just a feather touch of inside it will not be that much & since it is inside it will be countered by the outside spin that is produced from the collision with the CB with the OB. Are you familiar with this physics?

Anyway, yesterday I noticed that much of the spin that my cue ball had was from me hitting it with low or high combined with the TOI as I had normally done with almost all of my english shots for 4.6 decades.

So...what I did was to hit exactly on the equator or just a touch above or below along with the TOI when needed. The result was a more consistent squirt & less spin on the CB. I think for the first real time my shots where reacting very closed to what CJ does with the ball.

Another revelation was that I truly understood what CJ meant about moving the CB 'quickly'.

If you are getting spin swerve in your shots then you are hitting too far off center for the speed that you are hitting. The farther off center you hit the firmer the hit must be to keep the spin from taking hold & turning into swerve before it contacts the OB & can be absorbed by the outside spin that would be produced by the collision. The goal is to have the two opposite spins cancel out so the CB just 'floats or drifts'.

I hope something here helped. If I can clarify anything further just ask & I will do my best to do so.

Best Wishes,
Rick

PS I would not consider the OB being thrown in the same manner as english spin throws an OB. The collision induced throw from the collision is just not 'cancelled out as it might be if the shot were ht with outside english.
 
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TOI works best for me if I hit the CB a little low. Depends on the distance. Try hitting at stop shot speeds until you get a feel for it.
 
What I know about TOI can be written on the back of your hand, but here goes...

I've not purchased any PPV or DVD but what I gather is you line up centre to centre on thick shots and parallel shift to the desired TOI position to deflect or "create" the desired angle to pocket the ball. You line up centre to edge for shots thinner than a half ball hit, but everything else stays the same. You don't use TOI on straight ins or shots that need to be slow rolled...again I'm not 100% on this but this is what I've kinda picked up.

Now, as for no spin? I've tried messing around and entertaining the idea of TOI and not once have I had a "no spin" shot. For example; on shots slightly thicker than a half ball hit I line up centre to centre but I have to shift WAY out to the inside to deflect the CB enough to pocket it and this leaves the CB spinning, more than enough to severely change the angle once it contacts a rail...and my cue deflects A LOT, and yet I've got to go way out on the CB.

So yeah as I said I'm no expert on it but from my experience if you want a "no spin" shot, don't hit the CB with any spin *epiphany*
 
Pidge said:
What I know about TOI can be written on the back of your hand, but here goes...

I've not purchased any PPV or DVD but what I gather is you line up centre to centre on thick shots and parallel shift to the desired TOI position to deflect or "create" the desired angle to pocket the ball. You line up centre to edge for shots thinner than a half ball hit, but everything else stays the same. You don't use TOI on straight ins or shots that need to be slow rolled...again I'm not 100% on this but this is what I've kinda picked up.

Now, as for no spin? I've tried messing around and entertaining the idea of TOI and not once have I had a "no spin" shot. For example; on shots slightly thicker than a half ball hit I line up centre to centre but I have to shift WAY out to the inside to deflect the CB enough to pocket it and this leaves the CB spinning, more than enough to severely change the angle once it contacts a rail...and my cue deflects A LOT, and yet I've got to go way out on the CB.

So yeah as I said I'm no expert on it but from my experience if you want a "no spin" shot, don't hit the CB with any spin *epiphany*
Click to expand...

I dunno' but I think it's time for CJ.
 
Ralph Kramden said:
I dunno' but I think it's time for CJ.
Click to expand...
Yeah.
Like I said I'm no expert, and I do doubt it somewhat. I'm sure I've missed a vital step when I've been trying it out too.
CJ swears by it, and its clearly worked wonders for him in the past and even today he still plays pretty strong but I just can't seem to hit a shot with it where the CB doesn't spin upon contact and after contact like I can by hitting the CB with no spin.
 
ENGLISH! said:
I had a bit of a revelation yesterday. I have been spinning the CB with english for over 4 decades. I started playing around with TOI right after CJ came out with it & while I saw that it certainly worked is a viable playing method, I had some trouble as I have never given deflection a thought in all the time that I have been playing. My focus has always been on the spin to speed ratio & the swerve aspect.

You do not want to pivot in the conventional sense. I was shifting parallel but was not getting consistent success until CJ advised that I move the butt end first & then follow with the tip end. He thought that I was not really shifting parallel but that I might be pivoting. I don't think that I was.

Anyway, doing what CJ suggested gave a bit of a different visual perspective that certainly helped, What it did was basically get me to use a true feathers 'touch' of inside.

Things were much better, but still not really near to what CJ can do with it. The last time before yesterday I had developed an issue of looking at the CB during the stroke. I did like that as I have always looked at the OB during the stroke. I did not know why I had gravitated to that & could not figure it out. So anyway I finished up that afternoon playing 6 one pocket games where I played my old way without much if any TOI & I did so by looking at the OB during the stroke as I normally do.

Anyway after about 2.5 weeks from that session I went back yesterday & worked on looking at the OB during the TOI stroke. I was back to seeing the OB go into the pocket & back to seeing the reaction of the CB coming off of the OB. Probably like you, my CB is inconsistent regarding coming off with spin or no spin.

Now with all that being said, I'm not exactly sure what spin to which you are referring. If you hit off center there will be spin. If hitting with just a feather touch of inside it will not be that much & since it is inside it will be countered by the outside spin that is produced from the collision with the CB with the OB. Are you familiar with this physics?

Anyway, yesterday I noticed that much of the spin that my cue ball had was from me hitting it with low or high combined with the TOI as I had normally done with almost all of my english shots for 4.6 decades.

So...what I did was to hit exactly on the equator or just a touch above or below along with the TOI when needed. The result was a more consistent squirt & less spin on the CB. I think for the first real time my shots where reacting very closed to what CJ does with the ball.

Another revelation was that I truly understood what CJ meant about moving the CB 'quickly'.

If you are getting spin swerve in your shots then you are hitting too far off center for the speed that you are hitting. The farther off center you hit the firmer the hit must be to keep the spin from taking hold & turning into swerve before it contacts the OB & can be absorbed by the outside spin that would be produced by the collision. The goal is to have the two opposite spins cancel out so the CB just 'floats or drifts'.

I hope something here helped. If I can clarify anything further just ask & I will do my best to do so.

Best Wishes,
Rick

PS I would not consider the OB being thrown in the same manner as english spin throws an OB. The collision induced throw from the collision is just not 'cancelled out as it might be if the shot were ht with outside english.
Click to expand...
Hi Rick, It was long time since we discussed it. Here is what changed and what kind of spin I mean.

At some point I realized TOI did not work for me well because my technique was not in a good shape.
After practicing for a while, I tried TOI to apply for my aiming, whatever it is and use 3 part pocket system. It worked and it worked well, and I had no significant spin.

Then I switched to practicing cue ball control and at some point I noticed, I can easy draw, follow, stop the cue ball, even make it curve. So, I decided to return to CJ's definition of TOI as explained in the videos how he aims, C2C and C2E with TOI less than 2 tips. I tried and it worked! However, I noticed the side effect is the spin of the cue ball. This is the spin I am talking about.

Yes, if I just touch a little bit inside, I am satisfied with the spin, if I go off the center, it spins. Logically it is supposed to be like that, I understand. But I am curious what CJ does on the videos, say when playing 15 ball ghost. If you notice, he controls the cue ball very well and sometimes it goes far, sometimes just a little bit. And he is saying he used TOI. Sometimes I noticed though he positioned the body already for the shot to perform a required cut, not center-to-center or center-to-edge. It looked he was doing these shots so automatically, without thinking.
 
Pidge said:
Yeah.
Like I said I'm no expert, and I do doubt it somewhat. I'm sure I've missed a vital step when I've been trying it out too.
CJ swears by it, and its clearly worked wonders for him in the past and even today he still plays pretty strong but I just can't seem to hit a shot with it where the CB doesn't spin upon contact and after contact like I can by hitting the CB with no spin.
Click to expand...

That's the spin part and "hitting the center" with TOI I never understood.

What I mean is if it is hit enough off center, there will be spin. If I remember correctly, in the videos CJ mentioned he shifts and points to the center, but if he shifts, then technically it is not the center. He would need to pivot around the center of the cue ball to remain the cue pointed to the center.

It looks like it is time to finally understand it for me, I really want. :)

Is CJ reading this thread? :)
 
rubell said:
Hi Rick, It was long time since we discussed it. Here is what changed and what kind of spin I mean.

At some point I realized TOI did not work for me well because my technique was not in a good shape.
After practicing for a while, I tried TOI to apply for my aiming, whatever it is and use 3 part pocket system. It worked and it worked well, and I had no significant spin.

Then I switched to practicing cue ball control and at some point I noticed, I can easy draw, follow, stop the cue ball, even make it curve. So, I decided to return to CJ's definition of TOI as explained in the videos how he aims, C2C and C2E with TOI less than 2 tips. I tried and it worked! However, I noticed the side effect is the spin of the cue ball. This is the spin I am talking about.

Yes, if I just touch a little bit inside, I am satisfied with the spin, if I go off the center, it spins. Logically it is supposed to be like that, I understand. But I am curious what CJ does on the videos, say when playing 15 ball ghost. If you notice, he controls the cue ball very well and sometimes it goes far, sometimes just a little bit. And he is saying he used TOI. Sometimes I noticed though he positioned the body already for the shot to perform a required cut, not center-to-center or center-to-edge. It looked he was doing these shots so automatically, without thinking.
Click to expand...

Yesterday I did not concern myself very much with position play as I was focusing on my eyes thing & then not getting more than a smidge above or below the Equator along with the TOI.

What I noticed was that the CB seems to take a different angle but not in the same manner as when one is doing it with 'english'. When doing it with english many times there is a period where the ball is spinning in place or slipping on the cloth before it grabs & changes the direction & on severe ones the curve is noticeable.

With the TOI & just the bit below or above, the CB seems to just come off the OB in that different direction immediately. I think this might be what CJ referred to as moving or changing the CB 'quickly'.

Also, I found that I could do a bit of what you are talking about what he did on the DVDs because by staying more on or near the equator you can get enough squirt for those shorter & softer shots by not going too high or low to control the CB

Remember the squirt is in the exact 180* direction of the tip offset. So if htting at 7:30 the squirt off the tip will be to the 1:30 location. So, if hitting at 8:57 location the squirt will be to the 2:57 location.

Anyway, I was very very pleased with the revelations I made yesterday. I very much like what I saw. In fact, I even quit early because it was so good & I wanted to make sure that I ended on a very pleasant note & with a very good feeling before I added anything that might mess it up.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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Pidge said:
Yeah.
Like I said I'm no expert, and I do doubt it somewhat. I'm sure I've missed a vital step when I've been trying it out too.
CJ swears by it, and its clearly worked wonders for him in the past and even today he still plays pretty strong but I just can't seem to hit a shot with it where the CB doesn't spin upon contact and after contact like I can by hitting the CB with no spin.
Click to expand...

Hi Pidge,

How do you get the CB to not pick up any outside spin from the collision by hitting the CB with no spin to counter that physics? What am I missing?

I would think that if the ball truly has no spin then you would have had to hit it with enough inside spin to negate what would have been picked up by a normal non spin collision. Or it has the out side spin roll & you just don't notice it until it hits a rail. Or that normal outside spin roll IS the normal 'no spin' to you since it is not excessive.

Perception is what it is. I 'never' perceived squirt when I was focused on swerve.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Hi Pidge,

How do you get the CB to not pick up any outside spin from the collision by hitting the CB with no spin to counter that physics? What am I missing?

I would think that if the ball truly has no spin then you would have had to hit it with enough inside spin to negate what would have been picked up by a normal non spin collision. Or it has the out side spin roll & you just don't notice it until it hits a rail. Or that normal outside spin roll IS the normal 'no spin' to you since it is not excessive.

Perception is what it is. I 'never' perceived squirt when I was focused on swerve.

Best Wishes,
Rick
Click to expand...
Try it for yourself Rick.

On thick to very thick shots using a drag shot to move the CB an inch to six inches the CB has no spin until it picks up natural roll. All this is using a measles CB, which could lead to it playing tricks on my mind because I'm just looking at how the spots on the ball react.

Now the same shot with TOI - I physically see the CB spinning after the shot. Depending on how thick the shot is depends on how much it spins. But I've noticed it to be anywhere from half a rotation to a couple of rotations depending on how thick the shot is. Again, its with the measles CB so it could just be playing tricks on my mind.

Ill try tomorrow with a striped ball and get back to you :)
 
I think this.

Dont over think this penomenon. Its always good to understand things and we all the the jist of the TOi. BUt anytime we spend brain energy overthinking it inhibits the natural flow of our stroke and flow.

I find a good half hour of just hitting the balls and watching them fall is a great TOI tune up when ever i can get to it.

The main key is the acceleration through the cue ball. I do notice if i try to finesse a soft shot i always miss. I have incorperated into my shot routine accelerate in my my mind as i stroke through the ball. It reall help. DOnt let up on the stroke.

Maybe i make sense maybe i make jibberish.

Cheers
 
Pidge said:
Try it for yourself Rick.

On thick to very thick shots using a drag shot to move the CB an inch to six inches the CB has no spin until it picks up natural roll. All this is using a measles CB, which could lead to it playing tricks on my mind because I'm just looking at how the spots on the ball react.

Now the same shot with TOI - I physically see the CB spinning after the shot. Depending on how thick the shot is depends on how much it spins. But I've noticed it to be anywhere from half a rotation to a couple of rotations depending on how thick the shot is. Again, its with the measles CB so it could just be playing tricks on my mind.

Ill try tomorrow with a striped ball and get back to you :)
Click to expand...

Pidge,

I'm certainly not saying that I never get spin on the CB after contact as I was getting it inconsistently & usually it was inside spin on 30* or less. I think that was partly due to using more inside than was actually needed & why I was also hitting a bit too hard to keep the swerve out of the picture.

I like what I saw yesterday by staying very near to 1 tip or less inside & just 1 to 1.5 tips above or below the equator.

Try this tomorrow. Hit a stripe as the cue ball into a 30* cut & I think you will see the ball pick up an outside spin roll. That's the physics. If you don't get that then make sure the CB is rolling straight before it hits the OB & not with a bit of inside spin roll. Then try it with TOI.

I eagerly await your results.

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
ENGLISH! said:
Pidge,

I'm certainly not saying that I never get spin on the CB after contact as I was getting it inconsistently & usually it was inside spin on 30* or less. I think that was partly due to using more inside than was actually needed & why I was also hitting a bit too hard to keep the swerve out of the picture.

I like what I saw yesterday by staying very near to 1 tip or less inside & just 1 to 1.5 tips above or below the equator.

Try this tomorrow. Hit a stripe as the cue ball into a 30* cut & I think you will see the ball pick up an outside spin roll. That's the physics. If you don't get that then make sure the CB is rolling straight before it hits the OB & not with a bit of inside spin roll. Then try it with TOI.

I eagerly await your results.

Best Wishes,
Rick
Click to expand...
So I've just tried it Rick.
Half ball hit with centre CB does have some outside spin after contact, as predicted.
Half ball hit with TOI doesn't. It has a crapload of inside spin instead.

This wasn't what I said though. I said on a thick/ very thick shot using a drag shot the CB will have no spin. I also tried this again with a striped ball moving it upto 6 inches after contact. No spin. The striped ball simply slides along the cloth at first then natural roll kicks in. I also tried this with TOI. All I got was inside spin.
 
Pidge said:
So I've just tried it Rick.
Half ball hit with centre CB does have some outside spin after contact, as predicted.
Half ball hit with TOI doesn't. It has a crapload of inside spin instead.

This wasn't what I said though. I said on a thick/ very thick shot using a drag shot the CB will have no spin. I also tried this again with a striped ball moving it upto 6 inches after contact. No spin. The striped ball simply slides along the cloth at first then natural roll kicks in. I also tried this with TOI. All I got was inside spin.
Click to expand...

I hear you.

That's good to know.

I'll try your shot next time to see how much I get with TOI. I have not particularly noticed that much on the very thick hits that I have been hitting because they need so little TOI.

Where are you 'aiming' on that very think hit shot, CTC or center to a portion of the OB? If to a portion, where is the center CB aligned on the OB, 1/4 toward the edge from center or less? Also How much inside are you placing the tip? Is your whole tip inside of center or is just the center of your tip to the inside?

Thanks & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
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ENGLISH! said:
I hear you.

That's good to know.

I'll try your shot next time to see how much I get with TOI. I have not particularly noticed that much on the very thick hits that I have been hitting because they need so little TOI.

Where are you 'aiming' on that very think hit shot, CTC or center to a portion of the OB? If to a portion, where is the center CB aligned on the OB, 1/4 toward the edge from center or less? Also How much inside are you placing the tip? Is your whole tip inside of center or is just the center of your tip to the inside?

Thanks & Best Wishes,
Rick
Click to expand...
On the thick shot I started ctc, but to deflect the CB enough to pocket it I had to parallel shift over a whole tip. That created quite a bit of spin after the contact of balls. If It contacted a rail it would alter the path of the CB by about 20-30 degrees I'd say. That's far too much for my liking.
 
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