TOI without spin.

[ENGLISH!]

On the thick shot I started ctc, but to deflect the CB enough to pocket it I had to parallel shift over a whole tip. That created quite a bit of spin after the contact of balls. If It contacted a rail it would alter the path of the CB by about 20-30 degrees I'd say. That's far too much for my liking.

I would agree that that is way too much change for what should be none. How much of a cut shot are you talking about? If shot normally where would the center of the CB be aligned? 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 away from center toward the edge?

Yesterday I shot an 8 ball that was about 1/2 diamond from the long rail & 2 diamonds from the head rail. That cue ball was near a corner pocket on the head rail. Normally I would bank that ball across side. But since I was just messing around with TOI, I cut it all the way down into a the foot corner. I aligned CTE with just the touch of inside & a touch below the equator. I made the ball & the CB basically went straight back & forth across the short length of the table very much like it normally would have & stopped right near where the 8 ball was.

My point is that I have not noticed the type of spin to which you refer on a regular basis but I have noticed it pop up on me at times. I have been attributing that to me applying too much spin & hitting too hard to keep the swerve out of the picture. Many times the ball does float & drift for me with no or very little spin. So... I was attributing the times when it had much spin to me not executing properly & not to TOI not working.

And yesterday was the most consistent when I did not go high or low very much but stayed near the equator. When you go just the touch inside but then raise or drop the tip, you in essence are going much more off center & are putting more spin on the ball but in the diagonal direction.

Like CJ asked me, are you sure that you are parallel & not pivoting & hence having to go farther off center?

I was sure that I was not, but when I did it as CJ suggested with the butt first & then the tip, things certainly got better for me. I think it has something to do with the relationship of the eyes to the cue which yields a bit different perception of how much or little inside is needed.

Let me know where to align the center cue for the cut normally & I'll give it a try to see if I get the same results.

Best,
Rick

 

[Pidge]

I would agree that that is way too much change for what should be none. How much of a cut shot are you talking about? If shot normally where would the center of the CB be aligned? 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 away from center toward the edge?

Yesterday I shot an 8 ball that was about 1/2 diamond from the long rail & 2 diamonds from the head rail. That cue ball was near a corner pocket on the head rail. Normally I would bank that ball across side. But since I was just messing around with TOI, I cut it all the way down into a the foot corner. I aligned CTE with just the touch of inside & a touch below the equator. I made the ball & the CB basically went straight back & forth across the short length of the table very much like it normally would have & stopped right near where the 8 ball was.

My point is that I have not noticed the type of spin to which you refer on a regular basis but I have noticed it pop up on me at times. I have been attributing that to me applying too much spin & hitting too hard to keep the swerve out of the picture. Many times the ball does float & drift for me with no or very little spin. So... I was attributing the times when it had much spin to me not executing properly & not to TOI not working.

And yesterday was the most consistent when I did not go high or low very much but stayed near the equator. When you go just the touch inside but then raise or drop the tip, you in essence are going much more off center & are putting more spin on the ball but in the diagonal direction.

Like CJ asked me, are you sure that you are parallel & not pivoting & hence having to go farther off center?

I was sure that I was not, but when I did it as CJ suggested with the butt first & then the tip, things certainly got better for me. I think it has something to do with the relationship of the eyes to the cue which yields a bit different perception of how much or little inside is needed.

Let me know where to align the center cue for the cut normally & I'll give it a try to see if I get the same results.

Best,
Rick

The cut was a quarter ball hit. CB-OB distance was about 4ft. I hit 1 and a half tips below centre with a TOI and soft enough so the CB travelled along the tangent line for about 3 inches.

I've since drawn chalk lines on my table to check I'm shifting parallel correctly and I am. The only way I'm going to get "no spin" in this type of shot is by using a severe drag shot with no side spin, or using inside spin, but not aligning centre to centre. Instead with my cue and stroke I would have to align centre to X and then apply TOI. That for me isn't worth it if I want to get "no spin". Too unpredictable. I would much rather go through my normal way of aiming and apply the right amount of inside english for the cut angle to create "no spin". I just can't do it with TOI.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The cut was a quarter ball hit. CB-OB distance was about 4ft. I hit 1 and a half tips below centre with a TOI and soft enough so the CB travelled along the tangent line for about 3 inches.

I've since drawn chalk lines on my table to check I'm shifting parallel correctly and I am. The only way I'm going to get "no spin" in this type of shot is by using a severe drag shot with no side spin, or using inside spin, but not aligning centre to centre. Instead with my cue and stroke I would have to align centre to X and then apply TOI. That for me isn't worth it if I want to get "no spin". Too unpredictable. I would much rather go through my normal way of aiming and apply the right amount of inside english for the cut angle to create "no spin". I just can't do it with TOI.

Pidge,

My table is not yet home so I'll take a look at it when next to a table.

If you would like, try hitting that shot just barely under center. You may find that in over cuts or goes in the over cut side of the pocket. If so you can use less TOI. Maybe use a bit firmer grip & try to not spin the ball even though we know that it will. Hit it like you would if hitting center but do accelerate. Don't baby it. I think a more compact accelerated stroke works better for TOI.

I know that you are probably not going to switch but it might become a tool for you.

Best,
Rick

 

[rubell]

Had tried couple things from the thread:

1. Accelerated stroke
2. Moving butt first

I think the precision increased. At least it felt well and the balls were pocketed well. However, after probably 20 degree cut the ball was spinning a lot, not like I want to be able to set the cue ball position for the next shot. Very difficult to control.

The only way when it did not spin much was when it did not deflect much but it is a different kind of stroke, more like push or drag. I have a hard time explaining it yet. In any case, it is not what is needed for TOI.

These 2 adjustments though went very well and without any side effects when I just applied TOI to some other aiming method and used the 3 part pocket system.

update> Later on I learned that in order to accelerate better, I should not make my bridge too short. Otherwise it is difficult to do it.

 

[Jpool1985]

I watched CJ Wiley and Max Eberle dvd and I think they are very easy talking pool players to understand much as we can as we go, but one part I cannot get down is CJ Wiley's TOI part. All other dvds CJ have was great but only thing I couldn't get down is TOI. It not the understanding part I get that but problem is trying to do it on the table.

I've tried it and I cannot get it down but CJ Wiley still a good player and always enjoy watching his dvds.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I'd suggest experimenting for 3 straight hours using ONLY the inside of the cue ball

Have anyone practiced TOI? How to avoid the cue ball spin?

Here is what I mean.

Logically speaking hitting off center, even a little bit will introduce a force that may cause, if not compensated by some other force the cue ball to spin. So, what is the technique to avoid the spin?

When I make a stroke off center, the cue ball starts spinning. Than more off center or more the speed (to certain degree), than more the spin. I shift, not pivot.

Hey there, I've been occupied looking at locations for a new Billiard Club and haven't been on the computer much lately.

Yes, if you hit the cue ball off center you're going to get some spin. I advise using as little 'TOI" as possible, to avoid getting more than a "touch" of spin. The "NO SPIN" part of TOI happens after contact, when the cue ball appears to "float" to it's next position....and the angles are more true than when using excess english (outside of inside). Shot Speed is an important aspect of using TOI and I'd recommend using an accelerated stroke and you'll probably be hitting the cue ball slightly firmer than usual.

When using the Touch of Inside I'd suggest experimenting for 3 straight hours using ONLY the inside of the cue ball and STILL trying to get all the same position that you usually get. This will force you to use the lower portion of the cue ball more and "force" the cue ball around rather than spinning it around....this gives you the "Heavier Ball" feel that players talk about when using the TOI Technique.

Less is more with the TOI and I'd just calibrate shots to hit the center of the pocket by "aiming" to the inside of the pocket......you can use any "aiming system" you want to do this, although during the 3 hour TOI Session I'd just use more TOI to create more angle.....this is the "secret" to learning how to connect your subconscious to what's really happening in your pool shots.

I could write an entire book on this subject and how it ties in to how our minds work, however, just try the 3 hour session, the players that actually do this discover the "secret" of the 'Touch of Inside' Technique for themselves.....and at the end of the day, that's the only thing that counts. 'The Game is Your Teacher'

 

[CJ Wiley]

The Touch of Inside Technique is the key that unlocks the door of TOUCH

Dont over think this penomenon. Its always good to understand things and we all the the jist of the TOi. BUt anytime we spend brain energy overthinking it inhibits the natural flow of our stroke and flow.

I find a good half hour of just hitting the balls and watching them fall is a great TOI tune up when ever i can get to it.

The main key is the acceleration through the cue ball. I do notice if i try to finesse a soft shot i always miss. I have incorperated into my shot routine accelerate in my my mind as i stroke through the ball. It reall help. DOnt let up on the stroke.

Maybe i make sense maybe i make jibberish.

Cheers

Very well said, you are really experiencing the TOI....it's not something you can "think" and understand, you actually MUST experience it. I can always tell those that actually are using the technique and those that are trying to conceptualize it. You simply can't develop the touch and feel needed for high level pool by "figuring it out".

The Touch of Inside Technique is the key that unlocks the door of TOUCH in the game and ultimately that's the real "secret of the champions" .....they don't know any secret formula or magical technique, they have aligned and connected their minds to what's going on with their shots...they can mentally "move" the cue ball and throw balls in creating and maximizing margin of error.

This is difficult to teach and learn, however, the TOI will accomplish this by adding your realization of what's going on when the cue ball deflects....by actually trying to do it, rather than accidently doing it...there's a HUGE difference. 'The Game is Your Teacher'

 

[rubell]

Hey there, I've been occupied looking at locations for a new Billiard Club and haven't been on the computer much lately.

Yes, if you hit the cue ball off center you're going to get some spin. I advise using as little 'TOI" as possible, to avoid getting more than a "touch" of spin. The "NO SPIN" part of TOI happens after contact, when the cue ball appears to "float" to it's next position....and the angles are more true than when using excess english (outside of inside). Shot Speed is an important aspect of using TOI and I'd recommend using an accelerated stroke and you'll probably be hitting the cue ball slightly firmer than usual.

When using the Touch of Inside I'd suggest experimenting for 3 straight hours using ONLY the inside of the cue ball and STILL trying to get all the same position that you usually get. This will force you to use the lower portion of the cue ball more and "force" the cue ball around rather than spinning it around....this gives you the "Heavier Ball" feel that players talk about when using the TOI Technique.

Less is more with the TOI and I'd just calibrate shots to hit the center of the pocket by "aiming" to the inside of the pocket......you can use any "aiming system" you want to do this, although during the 3 hour TOI Session I'd just use more TOI to create more angle.....this is the "secret" to learning how to connect your subconscious to what's really happening in your pool shots.

I could write an entire book on this subject and how it ties in to how our minds work, however, just try the 3 hour session, the players that actually do this discover the "secret" of the 'Touch of Inside' Technique for themselves.....and at the end of the day, that's the only thing that counts. 'The Game is Your Teacher'

Btw, applying 3 part pocket with TOI to my aiming method worked well for me. No undesired spin if I do not want it. I do not really aim when I shoot. I remember a position (the cue and object ball placement) and just connect it to the inside side of the pocket and apply TOI and the ball goes to the center.

Now I get your point of using just TOI to learn deflection behavior better.

 

[Neil]

..........

Yes, if you hit the cue ball off center you're going to get some spin. I advise using as little 'TOI" as possible, to avoid getting more than a "touch" of spin. The "NO SPIN" part of TOI happens after contact, when the cue ball appears to "float" to it's next position....and the angles are more true than when using excess english (outside of inside). Shot Speed is an important aspect of using TOI and I'd recommend using an accelerated stroke and you'll probably be hitting the cue ball slightly firmer than usual.

.............

Glad to see you finally stating correctly what is actually happening.

 

[Mikjary]

I watched the recent 9 ball session between Brandon Shuff and Karen Corr. I noticed Brandon hitting the balls quite a bit better than he did at the Mosconi Cup. He was using a TOI on close to every shot.

A pro friend of mine called me up and told me to turn the stream on to see something. I told him that Brandon was using TOI and he agreed. Although he was getting out, I could see him struggle on a few shots by getting inside spin instead of TOI. It'll take him a while yet to get it completely, but I definitely noticed the change in his game.

I wonder who worked with him? Hijack done.

Best,
Mike

 

[stan shuffett]

I watched the recent 9 ball session between Brandon Shuff and Karen Corr. I noticed Brandon hitting the balls quite a bit better than he did at the Mosconi Cup. He was using a TOI on close to every shot.

A pro friend of mine called me up and told me to turn the stream on to see something. I told him that Brandon was using TOI and he agreed. Although he was getting out, I could see him struggle on a few shots by getting inside spin instead of TOI. It'll take him a while yet to get it completely, but I definitely noticed the change in his game.

I wonder who worked with him? Hijack done.

Best,
Mike

I worked with Brandon for 3 days. I have received some positive responses since that time. He is slowly implementing PRO ONE into his game. Some of the major points he has relayed to me are: simplicity of PRO ONE, positive effect on his game and his use of PRO ONE for the majority of his shots. He was scheduled to make a return visit just recently and I had to cancel due to conflict. Brandon will be getting back with me for rescheduling.

CTE PRO ONE does not limit a player to CCB. A little inside or outside can work perfectly with the system .

Stan Shuffett

 

[Mikjary]

I worked with Brandon for 3 days. I have received some positive responses since that time. He is slowly implementing PRO ONE into his game. Some of the major points he has relayed to me are: simplicity of PRO ONE, positive effect on his game and his use of PRO ONE for the majority of his shots. He was scheduled to make a return visit just recently and I had to cancel due to conflict. Brandon will be getting back with me for rescheduling.

CTE PRO ONE does not limit a player to CCB. A little inside or outside can work perfectly with the system .
Stan Shuffett

I agree. I use Pro One with a TOI for position. The Pro One already gives me a slight over cut to center pocket on the object ball, so I make an adjustment to dial in the TOI. With a little table time it becomes automatic. No over thinking needed.

Brandon's game has noticeably improved. He obviously changed it for the better. Good for him and his coach!

Best,
Mike

 

[rubell]

..........

 

[CJ Wiley]

he may have to incorporate some "TOI" into his game if he hasn't already.

I watched the recent 9 ball session between Brandon Shuff and Karen Corr. I noticed Brandon hitting the balls quite a bit better than he did at the Mosconi Cup. He was using a TOI on close to every shot.

A pro friend of mine called me up and told me to turn the stream on to see something. I told him that Brandon was using TOI and he agreed. Although he was getting out, I could see him struggle on a few shots by getting inside spin instead of TOI. It'll take him a while yet to get it completely, but I definitely noticed the change in his game.

I wonder who worked with him? Hijack done.

Best,
Mike

I played Brandon a gambling set when we were at the US Open a few years ago. I could tell he had a lot of potential then, and even though I beat him 15/9 he showed exceptional talent. There are some things that are holding him back and I went over a few of them at last year's Mosconi Cup. He seems eager to improve, however he may have to incorporate some "TOI" into his game if he hasn't already.

Whether he's made any changes or not is unknown to me because I haven't seen him play a game since then. I made a point to tell him not to attempt any changes during that competition and intentionally didn't get into any details that might throw his natural game off.

I believe if we worked together for a week to ten days I could help him improve at least a ball physically and also give him some important mental techniques that would make his game more intimidating.

Maybe someday we'll get that chance, after I open up this new pool room I'll have him come down to Texas and play/train if he's up for it. I'll need some sparring partners to get ready for the promotional phases of our plan for the TV series. 'The Game is the Teacher'