Top Players

donny mills said:
I disagree. I never thought I would be good and I've become kinda good.
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Fair enough,

I shouldn't have made that statement in absolute terms as there are exceptions to every rule. But in general I have found that players who believe that certain levels are unattainable will find that it is true, for them at least.
 
Neil said:
Donny, I believe there is a BIG difference in not thinking you will ever be really good, and not believing that you will ever be real good. One, allows the possibility to happen, the other negates any possibility of it happening.

If you just don't really think about ever being real good, but do the things necessary to get good, you will get good. But if you really believe you won't be good, you will sabotage the things you need to do to get good.
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Well said. I think that any player that wants to improve should surround themselves with like minded individuals. It's tough to ascend to the upper levels when everyone around you tells you it's impossible.
 
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Neil said:
I think it can be narrowed down to three things. I thought about what order to put them in, and there really isn't one. Because withour any one of the three, you won't be top level.

The three are 1. In full control of the mental game. 2. Precision cueball control. 3. Consitency.

Even us lowly A players can do everything the pros do. We just fold mentally, lose the cb at an inopportune time, or screw up our stroke occasionally. Any of these three put a real damper on things at a higher level.
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I have to go with Neil here and stress the precision cue ball control.

I am pretty good friends with a really top level player, and he told me once that the biggest difference in his game and mine was that I shot for position in a 1 foot circle, while he shot for position on a dime inside the 1 foot circle.

Mike
 
I would agree with everything mentioned already, but I would also add that creativity and vision seem to make up a good portion of the difference between a person who plays great pool and one who makes people just shake their heads and say "wow".

There are several pro players who consistently execute to near technical perfection (Souquet comes to mind), and that's fun to watch for sure, but even those players occasionally shake their heads and say "wow" at the way certain other players (Efren comes to mind for some reason ;)) consistently find ways to create opportunities out of what appear to be utterly hopeless situations.

Aaron
 
I believe practice and determination makes a good player (up to below avg. pro level) but TALENT is what takes you to the higher level; some players (and they know) will never reach certain level.
 
Natural Ability also....

One other point I would have to add is natural ability. This could include: thought process, vizualization, fundamentals, mental strength, hand/eye coordination, observational learning, ability to learn, etc.. Most people have natural abilities at one or more of these areas. The more that come natural to you, the easier it is to learn any game or sport.
Therefore, IMO the more "natural talents" that you have, the quicker and easier it is to learn, as in this case, pool. Others that have less, need more direction, help, more practice to reach each level.
I hope that I'm relaying my thoughts clear enough.
 
All the things mentioned here are what makes a great player. Most of the time the combination of things or what is the most important are not the same for every player.

I like Neil's list the most for the step from an A player to pro.
1) Mental game
2) Cueball control
3) Consistency

I think the ability to gain these three skills depends on the players natural ability, environment, intellegence (sometimes stupidity), time, practice, desire, test under fire, heart, ...
The list goes on and on. These factors are what will control the pace of improvement, plateus, and limits.

I know players who got real good real quick and stopped. I am the type of player who continually gets better with effort but it was a combination of all the above factors. It is different for us all. The factors are not isolated but are completely inter-related. There is no magic pill, but I do think the limits on your game are controlled by natural abiliy. Not just natural ability to shoot pool, but natual ability as it relates to every single one of the components above.
 
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The receipe...

Dedication
Desire
Determination
Devotion
Discipline
Drive
Direction
Dreams...

Go and be among the champions in your area...

Go as often as you can..
Go and compete with them as frequently as you can..
Go and compete with them as cheaply as you can..

Do not be afraid to ask for help from them..
Open your mouth and do not be too proud...

Join the best leagues or tournaments in your area where the champs are...

Only watch the best players and learn from them ...

Get as much table time as you can...

Control your cueball...speed is everything...as well as your next angle..

Believe in yourself and remember...Everyone makes mistakes...The best player is the one who makes the least...

This is why Efren is the best...he makes the least amount of errors..

Good Luck..

Mr. J.
 
one other thing

You can laugh if you want, but most great players I've seen possess a magic stroke............
 
Lot of good ideas and comments in the replies above. A few comments of my own:

- Certainly natural talent helps, the ability to visualize the table, position routes, etc. The top players have developed their game allowing them to understand and repeat patterns to get from ball to ball in the most optimal way possible playing for the largest area possible. And when they do have to "come" with a shot, they fire it in like it's practice and with confidence

- A lot of regional players can pocket balls well, or have great cueball control, or can bank well, kick well, break well, etc. A top player or pro needs to really have all of these skills at a fairly high level. And they tend to be more consistent at all facets of the game just through the hours they put in, the type and constant level of competition they play against, etc.

- Consistency is HUGE! Look at the Accustats ratings - almost all of the time, the player with the higher rating wins the match, barring weird rolls etc. I have an older match at home where one player shot .913 and the other shot .912 (both excellent!) and the score was 13-11. It's so consistent it's predicable. They make less mistakes in general (but they do make mistakes) in all areas of the game (shots missed, position missed, safeties, etc.) and rebound better by not compounding one mistake with another or by dwelling on previous mistakes


For myself, I've been putting a lot of time into the game, if nothing more than just for personal satisfaction, at my age (41) I don't have any aspirations of making the pro tour and even if I were good enough (which I'm not), the money is not an incentive to quit the day job. But I do want to perform better in the local and regional tourneys, and finishing deep or snapping one off once in while is nice.

So aside from general learning and emphasizing the good parts of my game while working on the bad, I've just really been working on repetition and consistency. So when I have that 30 degree angle simple cut shot and I have to go 2 rails for shape, I make it 5% or 10% more now then I did (or miss it less, however you want to look at it) and feel like I've seen it hundreds of times before breeding confidence etc. Increased "alone" table time, doing standard and ghost/run-out drills, and trying to playing better competition is all part of the plan. If I think about the Accustats-style ratings, and I can raise my own personal rating 5% - 10%, then I know I'm improving and becoming more consistent. Wish I was diligent enough to actually rate my matches over time to track progress - hey, there's an idea... :)

Scott
 
Lol

Staying hungry works? If you only eat after winning money at Pool.

Fact is, your goals in Pool change over time. When you are young, you want to learn the game and become a good player. Then later on a great player, maybe even the best, at least the best you can be.

You thive on competition, then the money comes along, boy, it is nice to win money doing something I like so much. I want to win more money, so you play for more money, whoops, being broke isn't fun, better get better.

It shifts more towards money and competition, but after 40 or 50 years,
the money is okay, not like it used to be, and you find yourself just wanting to have a good time and jabber at a few players or friends that play.

Oh yes, for the tournament players, after getting knocked out of about 60-70 tournaments, their glimmer starts to dim over time. And in the end you are just sitting around the table with friends bullshitting about who played better in 'the old days'.
 
How many pros come from a family with an above average income? How many of them come from well educated families with a history of social accomplishments? I suspect that not many of them come from good circumstances. If they do they are probably not on good terms with their family during their early days. Add to that the idea that we usually find something in life that can do better than others and we stick with it because it suits our personality style. We select one or another occupation / vocation by choice and circumstance.

From what I have read it would appear that many of the really good pool players like to gamble and they like to scam other people. They do not like to work (as defined socially) and they seek the company of like minded peers. They are willing to suffer the approbation of others to live a gypsy life style where a big score means everything and money is but a tool that lets them gamble in other ways. Today they might be on a surf board or climbing cliffs if there was gambling in the offing. Apparently, the really good players are not physically adventurous; they are socially adventurous and have excellent hand eye coordination. I doubt there are too many places in our civilization that pays dividends for these qualities. In fact, it doesn't pay all that well for most of the excellent pool players.

So if we have a kid who is probably defined as lazy, has good hand eye coordination, likes to play for his own satisfaction, hang out with like minded peers, and takes advantage of others when the opportunity presents itself, the stage is set for a person with dexterity to become an accomplished player. The desire and dedication comes from success, lack of other opportunities, and some source of intermittent reinforcement.

People like Nick Varner and Bob Jewett are few and far between in the pool playing world. I believe that J. Archer and E Strickland are both high school drop outs. It seems that a rebellious, self interest is one of the prerequisites. I have noticed in my few years interacting with pool players that excellent players enjoy and feel driven to "crush" other people during competition or when reeling in a fish. This is not a sign of good social skills but it is needed to reach the highest levels. I suspect that most of us are simply not willing to fulfill the social and personal requirements that are needed to be a great pool player.
 
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Lots of practice helps but I sincerely believe that the best are born with a talent for the game that is honed by practice.

I could practice running the 100 meter dash everyday for the rest of my life and I would still never be able to beat an olympic sprinter. I might get better and faster than many others, but I would still never beat the best due to a lack of natural, God-given talent for that activity.
 
Social Graces

JoeW said:
How many pros come from a family with an above average income? How many of them come from well educated families with a history of social accomplishments? I suspect that not many of them come from good circumstances. If they do they are probably not on good terms with their family during their early days. Add to that the idea that we usually find something in life that can do better than others and we stick with it because it suits our personality style. We select one or another occupation / vocation by choice and circumstance.

From what I have read it would appear that many of the really good pool players like to gamble and they like to scam other people. They do not like to work (as defined socially) and they seek the company of like minded peers. They are willing to suffer the approbation of others to live a gypsy life style where a big score means everything and money is but a tool that lets them gamble in other ways. Today they might be on a surf board or climbing cliffs if there was gambling in the offing. Apparently, the really good players are not physically adventurous; they are socially adventurous and have excellent hand eye coordination. I doubt there are too many places in our civilization that pays dividends for these qualities. In fact, it doesn't pay all that well for most of the excellent pool players.

So if we have a kid who is probably defined as lazy, has good hand eye coordination, likes to play for his own satisfaction, hang out with like minded peers, and takes advantage of others when the opportunity presents itself, the stage is set for a person with dexterity to become an accomplished player. The desire and dedication comes from success, lack of other opportunities, and some source of intermittent reinforcement.

People like Nick Varner and Bob Jewett are few and far between in the pool playing world. I believe that J. Archer and E Strickland are both high school drop outs. It seems that a rebellious, self interest is one of the prerequisites. I have noticed in my few years interacting with pool players that excellent players enjoy and feel driven to "crush" other people during competition or when reeling in a fish. This is not a sign of good social skills but it is needed to reach the highest levels. I suspect that most of us are simply not willing to fulfill the social and personal requirements that are needed to be a great pool player.
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With that post I have no doubt that you'll be in the social graces, and have the blessing from the "Queen of England" in no time!


David Harcrow
 
I apologize ahead of time

for skimming through the above posts to reply in my own fashion, so if I am redundant, bear with me.

Often times, I will use Buddy Hall as an example because he is the only person in my pool hall who can be made an example of due to who he is. I can attest to the fact that he is good not only because he is naturally talented, but because he 'loves pool'. That alone is a good enough reason to play this game well. If you have a passion for something, it doesn't matter whether or not you have talent. It matters that you keep at it and pick up the right tips along the way. I was a mediocre player for many many years until just recently. I tried to play thinking I was going to copy Francisco Bustamante and mock the original fundamentals I was taught only to find that was hurting my game the entire time.

I have since grown older and become 'humbled' which in turn made me lower my pride and therefore created a two way street for an exchange of knowledge contributing to success. That is just one of those things that just happens along the way.

One of the main guys who works in the pool hall has no stroke. He is old too. He can surely kick my ass at one pocket though. He knows his stuff, cause he's seen a thing or two. That's what it's all about. We must decide ultimately what we are going to invest our time into and then live our life as fully as possible. If we are going to get somewhere, we should pour all of our energy in to that one thing and do it consistently if we're going to see any results.

Many people try to live in a fake state thinking that if I can just juggle this, and juggle that, I will hopefully be able to squeeze this into that. That's too greedy. That's America. We should decide who we are in life. Top players like Buddy are top players because long ago, they realized that they are a pool player inside and out. He told me one time that he had a dream about his bridge. He said that he dreamed about it one night and something clicked. He went in the next day and practiced what he had dreamed, and that was one of the golden turning points in his up and coming pool playing days. My turning point happened when I decided to stop being such a cocky bastard and take a look inwards instead of looking outwards all the time.

I don't believe that there is any big secret to technique, fundamentals, or skill. Pool is extremely simple. Just look at the damn ball and hit it. We often times look elsewhere for our answers when in fact we have it within ourselves the entire time.
 
A few of the better players I have known, were sucked into the game by the easy money. Either couldn't find a good job, or didn't want to work for a living. They also got addicted to the adrenaline rush. Some of the guys I know, never practice. 1 in particular, I know for a fact, don't even like pool. He's not a top rated pro, but definitely plays better than shortstop speed for the cash.
 
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