Zims Rack said:
Band saw and a taper jig. Next time I have it set up I will take some pictures. Might be a while though.
true sneaky pete
- Thread starter Zims Rack
- Start date
Band saw and a taper jig. Next time I have it set up I will take some pictures. Might be a while though.
Zims Rack said:
I don't sell components. The only exception that I have made is I am doing a collaboration with another maker and I will be supplying the short spliced blanks. All of the details have not been worked out so I can't give any more details.
BiG_JoN said:
I have not found a good way to do it in a mill. It would take a small cutter and LOC would be a issue.
Maybe we could do a AZ Billiard field trip to Herceks shop
Murray Tucker said:
Mr.Tucker,
It's easy to cut the v groove in the front but how do you cut up the handle for that? The angle that the prongs have should be the same as the angles on the groove right? Otherwise they won't fit and this also depends on the length - the shorter the length, the steeper the angle of the groove. How is it compensated on the handle prongs? Any math calculations for this?
Hadj
Sign me up. I think we can take him...Murray Tucker said:I have not found a good way to do it in a mill. It would take a small cutter and LOC would be a issue.
Maybe we could do a AZ Billiard field trip to Herceks shop
.Murray, i think you have some really big trucks... we will just lock him in the closet, and move the whole shop to a more convenient location
.Thanks,
Jon
hadjcues said:
Yes it has to be at the same angle. Remember that the way you cut the piece in the saw is 45 degrees from the way it fits onto the front.
I'm sure there is some fancy math to figure it out but I just drew the pieces in Solidworks and made my models from that.
BiG_JoN said:Sign me up. I think we can take him...
Murray, i think you have some really big trucks... we will just lock him in the closet, and move the whole shop to a more convenient location
Thanks,
Jon
Sign me up too!!! You guys take care of him - I'll take care of the jigs
Wait, I'll stay in the shop while you move it... to my backyard!
BiG_JoN said:Sign me up. I think we can take him...
Murray, i think you have some really big trucks... we will just lock him in the closet, and move the whole shop to a more convenient location
Thanks,
Jon
YeeeeeHa. Sounds like some good, clean redneck fun to me.
Murray Tucker said:
Thanks Mr.Tucker.
A follow question - how do you get to cut the v-slots in the handle? I saw from your pics that the prongs slide into the v's in the fronts smoothly. I think the length of the point has a relation to the angle the V-prongs have to be cut. Plus of course they have to have 90 degree sqaure edges to fit the v-slots in the front.
The tip of the prongs are smaller than that at the base right?
Thanks,
Hadj
hadjcues said:
Yes they are smaller at the tip than at the base. The part you cut out looks kind of like a wedge. Cutting the handle is the easy part. What I have not been able to do is feather the maple portion to a sharp edge like in the picture. If anyone has any ideas I would sure like to hear them.
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again
Hi Murry, again, call me and I'll tell you how it's done. I teach these methods and many more. For you my friend, it's just a phone call away. N/C.
BTW, merylane,
Joel at one time cut his forearm points on a table saw, [as he was taught by Burton Spain]. The butt section was done on a band saw..The forearm was perferctly square, he then cut it out, then he inlayed one point at a time.
Meaning, that they were inlayed once a day, then the next day, he would cut another side, and do another and so on.
.I can't see him changing. He did such a good job, don't know why he would change after all these years?
830-232-5991
blud
Murray Tucker said:
Hi Murry, again, call me and I'll tell you how it's done. I teach these methods and many more. For you my friend, it's just a phone call away. N/C.
BTW, merylane,
Joel at one time cut his forearm points on a table saw, [as he was taught by Burton Spain]. The butt section was done on a band saw..The forearm was perferctly square, he then cut it out, then he inlayed one point at a time.
Meaning, that they were inlayed once a day, then the next day, he would cut another side, and do another and so on.
.I can't see him changing. He did such a good job, don't know why he would change after all these years?
830-232-5991
blud
I have a couple of ideas which might work I have not tried them yet though.Murray Tucker said:
I would start off by roughing out the prong your conventional way then I would use an indexing head with a chuck on it and hold on to the front of the prong above the points letting the back side hang out. I would then support the other end with a center rest the kind you would use in-between the dividing head and foot stock in a indexing setup. I would build a foot for the rest which could fit up into the v-groove. You would have to remove and replace the center rest every index. I think this method would work providing you were doing points which have a similar length to that of a house cue if your points were too long you would not have enough to chuck on.
Another possibility would be to start with a square prong blank and cut it laying flat on the mill table clamping it down from the top (with some kind of block underneath to give you some clearance), leaving your ends clear. The square material would provide your indexing so all you would have to worry about would be setting up a parrallel to give you the angle and some kind of stop so that when you index it always ends up in the same place.
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im sure joel does it on a mill, burton wasnt making them on a table saw when he taught joel, and yes joel still uses burts setup.
as blud said you can make them on a table saw which is very easy but the accuracy depends on a perfect square blank, can cut the 4 grooves in about a minute and a half.
as blud said you can make them on a table saw which is very easy but the accuracy depends on a perfect square blank, can cut the 4 grooves in about a minute and a half.
square
Differant strokes,for differant folks,
Using a table saw is fairly easy. Making your fronts perfectly square is also very easy. Your stock must be square. With a good jointer, and thickness plain, it's easy.
As far as cutting all four in a minute or so, this can be done, however Burton taught joel to cut one side at a time. By doing this, the front didn't have a chance to "move". After it was stable with one side glued up, the next day or so, he would cut one more.
Using a mill, you would need a center "rest" [ coming from the other side of your 90degree cutter]and also a height rest.. With no tail stock, you will get much "push/off".......The problem would be alignment, of your tooling, and not having any dwell marks.[push-off].... Height and depth. This is very tough to do in that mannor.
I've done it with a tail stock and very long material. What happens, is you can cut 3 cavities pretty smooth, and the 4th one gets a lot of chatter and push off, when you get down to paper thin material at the cross section of the 4 cavities...
For me, I would perfer the table. I think the saw is much easier, and produces even thichness of material between the veneers when finishing your cavities.
I would use a table saw and the cuts would be constistant on all sides. It's not to hard to do, if you just take your time.
It's all in the set up....
Just take your time. Leave your "set up", completely set up over the course of building the fronts.
I used a table saw when i first started making cues many years ago. I, had a blade built with 7/8" wide, total 90 degree cutter, 8" dia., with 32 carbide teeth. For the depth, I would simply dial up the saw.
I built a jig that would hold the front very tight. The front was round and tapered. The jig would hold it and you could run it through the table saw, and simple index the jig to the next side. It worked very well. Several years later, I sent it to Dave Jacoby and he used it for a spell.
A jig to hold a square front or handle is simple to build, also. Just build a "box" type afair, that's open on one side, {to allow the blade to do it's work}, without cutting off excess material and or your fingers.
If your using a mill to cut standard fronts, have your 90degree cutter head ground with as much relief and rake as possible. Some guys have there cutters ground too 89 degrees, and it's what i call the "CHEAT FACTOR". This allows you to squeeze the veneers in tight. I don't do that. Mine are 90degrees, and they fit perfect.
Laying in veneers.
Most guys lay them in one side, [one half of the cavity] at a time, then add the other half. I cut mine after they are all stack glued, 3 or 4 veneers thich. When cutting them I dial my saw [ 90 degree cutter], up to almost cut them in too. Then they get folded and glued in the cavity. The glue line is down the center of the veneers, as should be.Hard to see it.
Some lay and stack there veneers in. Meaning they lay {half} of the one veneer in one half side, glue it up and then over lap the other one, and repeat this until they have all of the veneers in place. Now when you look at the center line of the point, you have stagered veneer lines. One over laping the other. This is easier then folding them. It takes a lot of good workmanship for this method.
Folding veneers takes more time and work. I, personally think it's a cleaner look, and shows a higher degree of craftsmanship.
hope this information helps.
blud
merylane said:
Differant strokes,for differant folks,
Using a table saw is fairly easy. Making your fronts perfectly square is also very easy. Your stock must be square. With a good jointer, and thickness plain, it's easy.
As far as cutting all four in a minute or so, this can be done, however Burton taught joel to cut one side at a time. By doing this, the front didn't have a chance to "move". After it was stable with one side glued up, the next day or so, he would cut one more.
Using a mill, you would need a center "rest" [ coming from the other side of your 90degree cutter]and also a height rest.. With no tail stock, you will get much "push/off".......The problem would be alignment, of your tooling, and not having any dwell marks.[push-off].... Height and depth. This is very tough to do in that mannor.
I've done it with a tail stock and very long material. What happens, is you can cut 3 cavities pretty smooth, and the 4th one gets a lot of chatter and push off, when you get down to paper thin material at the cross section of the 4 cavities...
For me, I would perfer the table. I think the saw is much easier, and produces even thichness of material between the veneers when finishing your cavities.
I would use a table saw and the cuts would be constistant on all sides. It's not to hard to do, if you just take your time.
It's all in the set up....
Just take your time. Leave your "set up", completely set up over the course of building the fronts.
I used a table saw when i first started making cues many years ago. I, had a blade built with 7/8" wide, total 90 degree cutter, 8" dia., with 32 carbide teeth. For the depth, I would simply dial up the saw.
I built a jig that would hold the front very tight. The front was round and tapered. The jig would hold it and you could run it through the table saw, and simple index the jig to the next side. It worked very well. Several years later, I sent it to Dave Jacoby and he used it for a spell.
A jig to hold a square front or handle is simple to build, also. Just build a "box" type afair, that's open on one side, {to allow the blade to do it's work}, without cutting off excess material and or your fingers.
If your using a mill to cut standard fronts, have your 90degree cutter head ground with as much relief and rake as possible. Some guys have there cutters ground too 89 degrees, and it's what i call the "CHEAT FACTOR". This allows you to squeeze the veneers in tight. I don't do that. Mine are 90degrees, and they fit perfect.
Laying in veneers.
Most guys lay them in one side, [one half of the cavity] at a time, then add the other half. I cut mine after they are all stack glued, 3 or 4 veneers thich. When cutting them I dial my saw [ 90 degree cutter], up to almost cut them in too. Then they get folded and glued in the cavity. The glue line is down the center of the veneers, as should be.Hard to see it.
Some lay and stack there veneers in. Meaning they lay {half} of the one veneer in one half side, glue it up and then over lap the other one, and repeat this until they have all of the veneers in place. Now when you look at the center line of the point, you have stagered veneer lines. One over laping the other. This is easier then folding them. It takes a lot of good workmanship for this method.
Folding veneers takes more time and work. I, personally think it's a cleaner look, and shows a higher degree of craftsmanship.
hope this information helps.
blud
blud said:
Mine took a lot longer to cut. I did not have a 90 degree cutter. I tilted the saw blade (a regular type) to 45 degrees toward the fence. I then had an "L" shaped block to set the front end in. The block raised the front the same distace off the bed as it pused it from the fence. The way I did it, there were eight cuts required. It was a scary operation, and I like the set up you described, a lot better.
blud said:
Blud,
Are you referring to short splices? I don't understand how you could cut then fill one at a time on a full splice. I also think the table saw is the best way to cut the point grooves. I think if you did a temporary glueing (one small dot of glue) after the four points have been cut the throw-away points (three of them) could be easily removed, leaving a perfect prong. Maybe double sided tape would work for holding the temporary points in place. Also the temporary points would have to be over sized and trimmed flush to maintain squareness.
blud said:
Or IOW forever
blud said:
My brother has a Predator sneaky pete the wrapped vesion, two points are mitered and the other two are stacked. I was surprised to see two methods used in one cue.
Tracy