Trying new things to improve

[YOLO]

The internet can be a dangerous thing. I my quest for knowledge, and the desire to improve my skills, I decided to get back to basics. Stance, grip, bridge and stroke. I watched countless videos and read oogles of posts and articles. My quest for the perfect everything was is the key to taking my game to the next level.

I did a self evaluation and found that I grip the cue at, or very near, the butt end and my stroke was not what it needed to be. I was convinced that my stroke would never improve because of the grip. Almost every player I saw was at a minimum of 2 hand lengths up. Now, I'm playing off the wall and maybe these house cues are shorter so I found the longest ones I could and my hand still when to the bitter end... a bad habit I needed to break.

I started moving my hand up while at the same time focusing on my stroke and played for several days this way... I need to make this a habit... natural. Just the opposite was happening. I was getting crushed, like I was playing a table with no pockets. Determined that this was clearly a week point for me I pushed on, that is until my wife stepped up to me and told me "stop it you moron!". So, at her urging, I reluctantly went back to my old bad grip. I was doomed.

Well, my stroke is light years ahead of where it was a year ago thanks to that little exercise in futility. Last night was an example. People that I play on a regular basis are commenting on how good I'm getting (it's going to my head and I need to be humbled). Played a pretty sharp guy last night and took 2 of 3. I won 2 because of brilliant 11th hour kicks by me (kudos to the starter of the kick box thread, I own you rep).

So, not everything your taught or discover is right for you. I'll continue to try new things, experiment and practice. Take what feels right/natural and added it as a weapon.

Thanks for a great forum, loaded with great people, and wisdom well beyond their year!

 

[pooltchr]

Gripping the cue at the very end is neither good nor bad. Each player is an individual, and body size, type, arm length, etc all have an impact on where YOU should grip the cue. If your grip hand is directly below your elbow at the point in your stroke where you make contact with the cue ball, its probably just fine.

You might be able to save yourself some agrivation if you get a qualified instructor to work with you. They are often pretty good at spotting any flaws in your mechanics that might be contributing to problems in your game.

Self-evaluation ain't easy, and is often time consuming.

Steve

 

[YOLO]

Thanks for the input, Steve. Professional instruction is definately in my future. I've been playing for 30 years on and off and know I need it but in the mean time self evalutaion is all I've got.

Lets assume that I have a fairly sound foundation (D+ to C player) but a few slight adjustments are recommended. If they just don't sink in, feel right, etc... how long before you abandon it and go back? Lets use my grip as the example. Lets say my hand is not directly below my elbow so it's recommend that I adjust. How long, in genearl terms, would expect a student to become comfortable with it. Days, weeks, months?

I understand that every one is different so you may not be able to guestimate.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[ceebee]

I have played for 50 years... One lesson with Jerry Briesath & things were different very quickly. It is an eye opener that over a period of time, I had built in a NO-NO. Jerry fixed that flaw very quickly & things progressed.

In time, even your mental picture of correct aiming, correct stance or grip can slowly migrate away from being correct, hence the inconsistency.

 

[pooltchr]

who are some good ones not to exspensive ..

Depends on where you live. You may have some good ones very nearby...or you may end up traveling, or having someone travel to you. You can send me a PM if you like letting me know where you live, and we'll see if we can get some good recommendations for you.
Steve

 

[pooltchr]

Thanks for the input, Steve. Professional instruction is definately in my future. I've been playing for 30 years on and off and know I need it but in the mean time self evalutaion is all I've got.

Lets assume that I have a fairly sound foundation (D+ to C player) but a few slight adjustments are recommended. If they just don't sink in, feel right, etc... how long before you abandon it and go back? Lets use my grip as the example. Lets say my hand is not directly below my elbow so it's recommend that I adjust. How long, in genearl terms, would expect a student to become comfortable with it. Days, weeks, months?

I understand that every one is different so you may not be able to guestimate.

I almost hate to answer that question. Let's say we were working together and I showed you a problem, explained why it is a problem, and you and I agree that the solution will eliminate the problem when it is ingrained into your game. Now if you know it will work, are you going to give up after a specific amount of time if it hasn't already become a habit?

Some students can correct a problem immediately, and have it as a habit in a matter of a couple of weeks. Others may take longer. If you practice once a day, it will kick in much quicker than if you practice once a week. It's really up to the individual, and how willing they are to accept change as being part of improvement.

The other part of the problem, is how great of a change are we having to make? Minor adjustments are often easier to accomplish than the big ones.

Steve

 

[Beware_of_Dawg]

Lets say my hand is not directly below my elbow so it's recommend that I adjust. How long, in genearl terms, would expect a student to become comfortable with it. Days, weeks, months?.

disclaimer; I can only tell you what has worked for me.

was generally pretty easy for me to correct my past 90* grip. What you need is a reminder that is constantly there but quickly forgotten so your head doesn't get in the way. Mental masturabation or thinking to much while trying to execute is a brutal and frustrating thing which can quickly make you revert to old habits. (at least from what I've seen. frustration is a enemy to change)

TRy this, take a hairband (like the ones chick's use to pull back their hair, thicker than a rubberband but same concept)

(wouldnt pick pink though, lol.)

get in stance, grip cue. find spot that is exactly 90* down, double lop hairthingy where it would be right between your middle & ring finger. First couple times you have to contiously feel back for it but after a little while you forget about thinking "am I at 90*?" and before you know it... you forget it's there and forget about thinking, you just do it.

 

[Surly]

The same thing has happened to me. Twice.

I got Jerry Briesath's DVD, which is an awesome DVD, but it made me think to much. There was no room in my tiny little mind to concentrate on my stance, and my grip, and my elbow AND my aim... I shot my worst day ever after watching his video.

So the next day I focused back to just two things: Aim and a slow, smooth stroke. I played one of my best days ever. Lesson learned: Stance and grip and stroke are probably ok.

Then I got a lesson from Kelly Fisher. My Major Mistake was not asking her specifically to teach me specific things. I babbled a bit at first about my prior experience and my frustration in reaching that level again and then she set up two shots for me, which I made. So she decided to teach me her stance, which is much different than mine. She faces the ball straight on with a squatting stance.

After many hours... (20?) of using that stance and playing like my first day I was getting very frustrated. I started trying to incorporate my stance with hers, leading slightly with one leg, remembering to keep my elbow out... I made about 50% of my shots... but more importantly, I was beginning to lose interest in playing at all. I just wasn't comfortable at the table anymore. I become awkward even approaching the ball.

Today, after not playing for many days, I walked in and completely forgot everything I learned from her (which I'm extremely conflicted about), and played an unbelievable game!

Lesson learned: if you can pocket balls, pat yourself on the back and move forward.

Edit: I didn't forget everything I learned from her - just her stance. She taught me some very valuable drills and a few secrets that I will never reveal.

 

[Vinnie]

Slightly on topic

Is it better to grip the cue at the same balance spot regardless of cue length and adjust your bridge distance? Or, would it be better to maintain the same bridge and adjust your grip on the cue?
The reason I ask is that I have several cues I play with and their lengths are all different (57-60.25).

 

[Bigkahuna]

The same thing has happened to me. Twice.

I got Jerry Briesath's DVD, which is an awesome DVD, but it made me think to much. There was no room in my tiny little mind to concentrate on my stance, and my grip, and my elbow AND my aim... I shot my worst day ever after watching his video.

So the next day I focused back to just two things: Aim and a slow, smooth stroke. I played one of my best days ever. Lesson learned: Stance and grip and stroke are probably ok.

Then I got a lesson from Kelly Fisher. My Major Mistake was not asking her specifically to teach me specific things. I babbled a bit at first about my prior experience and my frustration in reaching that level again and then she set up two shots for me, which I made. So she decided to teach me her stance, which is much different than mine. She faces the ball straight on with a squatting stance.

After many hours... (20?) of using that stance and playing like my first day I was getting very frustrated. I started trying to incorporate my stance with hers, leading slightly with one leg, remembering to keep my elbow out... I made about 50% of my shots... but more importantly, I was beginning to lose interest in playing at all. I just wasn't comfortable at the table anymore. I become awkward even approaching the ball.

Today, after not playing for many days, I walked in and completely forgot everything I learned from her (which I'm extremely conflicted about), and played an unbelievable game!

Lesson learned: if you can pocket balls, pat yourself on the back and move forward.

Edit: I didn't forget everything I learned from her - just her stance. She taught me some very valuable drills and a few secrets that I will never reveal.

Surly,

I took a celebrity lesson myself from one of the ladies from the Charlotte NC area a couple of years ago at the APA Nationals. I asked if she could watch me while I shot. I ran out a rack of nine ball and she asked me why I was here. Well of course it was to find some flaws but I think she didn't know quite what to do with me. After two hours I basically left there with a couple of drills I had not seen yet and two things my regular coach had already pointed out to me.

I think many people want to take a lesson from some of their favorite players and that can help, However, my opinion is someone who is proficient at conveying the right information that fits the person and their needs at the time is probably going to be an instructor.

The snooker stance which is what Kelly uses is just about the only thing that I do not like about the mechanics that are taught to snooker players. For yourself, you have long legs (I saw your picture with Kelly in a previous post) and probably if you are right handed you are stepping into your stance with the left foot. If so, this would probably be the most comfortable and stable stance for you.

You should not abandon things that do not work for you right away. Your brain can intensely focus on not more than three things at once. When you are learning something new you are detracting from your ability to focus on pocketing balls. So, this is why it takes time to gel. You have to practice until things become second nature until you do not have to think about whether or not you are doing it right. This is a frustrating little game isn't it!!

Hope this helps

 

[Surly]

I agree. Being comfortable over the ball means a lot.

 

[Bigkahuna]

I agree. Being comfortable over the ball means a lot.

But also trying new things is uncomfortable. Everytime I help someone to lock the upper arm and develop a good pendulum swing they tell me the muscles right at the arm joint is killing themj but, after a few days it goes away. This is all about muscle memory. Try taking a lesson from a BCA certified instructor you may find that to be the most helpful. Do not take a lesson from team mates or the better players in the area they may know how to play but can't convey what they know and apply it to you personally.

 

[Gerry]

I"ll look for the article, but I know for a fact that the better the player the longer a new change takes to become ingrained. My golf coach told me ONE SMALL CHANGE will take a MINIMUM of 3000 to 5000 repetitions to become ingrained, and a minimum of +/- 30 days.

So, to try ANYTHING new for a few sessions or a few days is useless......you need to get your coach to have a plan, brake it into pieces, and work on those pieces over a long period of time to work....sorry guys, no quick fixes for a solid repeatable stroke

G.

 

[BWTadpole]

Gripping the cue at the very end is neither good nor bad. Each player is an individual, and body size, type, arm length, etc all have an impact on where YOU should grip the cue. If your grip hand is directly below your elbow at the point in your stroke where you make contact with the cue ball, its probably just fine.

You might be able to save yourself some agrivation if you get a qualified instructor to work with you. They are often pretty good at spotting any flaws in your mechanics that might be contributing to problems in your game.

Self-evaluation ain't easy, and is often time consuming.

Steve

Exactly, it's all up to the person. I'm only 5'10", but I have long arms. To put it into some perspective, my boxing reach is 71". For my height, that's long. My grip hand's pinky finger is usually right on the bottom seam of the wrap.

 

[Surly]

But also trying new things is uncomfortable. Everytime I help someone to lock the upper arm and develop a good pendulum swing they tell me the muscles right at the arm joint is killing themj but, after a few days it goes away. This is all about muscle memory. Try taking a lesson from a BCA certified instructor you may find that to be the most helpful. Do not take a lesson from team mates or the better players in the area they may know how to play but can't convey what they know and apply it to you personally.

But if I'm making 60% of my shots, missing the other 30-40 due to terrible position, shouldn't I really be concentrating on the outer, not the inner, so to speak?

If my muscles are all comfy with the way I shoot, isn't that important? My back was drawing up on my right side (right hander), and my hamstrings were killing me. Just moving a certain way standing upright would twinge one...

I fully understand and respect that three of the top women players in the world win with that stance... but it's just not for me.

 

[Bigkahuna]

Exactly, it's all up to the person. I'm only 5'10", but I have long arms. To put it into some perspective, my boxing reach is 71". For my height, that's long. My grip hand's pinky finger is usually right on the bottom seam of the wrap.

Yes it all depends upon your wing span and your bridge length. I am 6'4" and have pretty long arms, (it's why all the kids call me Big Kahuna). Anyways, I have long arms and usually a long bridge. This puts me so far back on the stick I am often grabbing the very end of the butt.

 

[Bigkahuna]

But if I'm making 60% of my shots, missing the other 30-40 due to terrible position, shouldn't I really be concentrating on the outer, not the inner, so to speak?

If my muscles are all comfy with the way I shoot, isn't that important? My back was drawing up on my right side (right hander), and my hamstrings were killing me. Just moving a certain way standing upright would twinge one...

I fully understand and respect that three of the top women players in the world win with that stance... but it's just not for me.

This is such a tough game to learn. Please do not take this as offensive obviously I have never seen you shoot. My guess is that you are at a point where you do not know how much you do not know, (just think about this statement for a moment). This is actually one of the levels of learning.

There are several stances you could possibly use. The stance I like may not work for you. For instance guys with a big belly or women with large breasts I recommend a different stance than I personally use. I do not recommend the snooker stance to anyone. However, I really like the english snooker players because they were all taught great stroking fundementals.

Most of the people I work with I am helping with stance, bridge, stroke. Stroking mechanics are so important that if I have a student that does exactly what I tell them usually inside of a couple of weeks they are shooting much much better.

A good test for a repeatable stroke is to take a striped ball and stand the stripe vertical on the middle of the draw string. Now shoot down the middle of the table then freeze and see if you can get the ball to come back and hit your tip at all speeds. If you find this challenging you are not hitting the center of the ball consistently.

If you are not hitting the center of the ball you are spinning the cue ball which will cause throw. So, if you are throwing the ball when you are not intending to are you missing because you are not aiming right or because of unintended throw? If you are missing shots because of unintended throw you will have a very hard time building your "shot memory".

Concerning position play the first two things you need to pay attention to are speed of the cue after contact and direction of the cue. The third is english but that is a far more complicated matter. With out using english much can be done simply with follow and draw.

 

[Cameron Smith]

But if I'm making 60% of my shots, missing the other 30-40 due to terrible position, shouldn't I really be concentrating on the outer, not the inner, so to speak?

Just to add to what Bigkahuna was saying, you should never stop focusing on your fundamentals. Poor position play is as much a result of poor execution as it is poor judgement. The better your alignement and more accurate your stroke is, the more predictable the cue ball path. Unintentional side, sloppy pocketing and the tip of the cue rising just before impact are all examples of mechanical errors that lead to an errant cue ball.

Besides, the better your shotmaking is the easier position play is, if you know what I mean.

 

[YOLO]

Once again you guys have come through with great advice and personal experiences. I'm going to have my wife take some pics (maybe a vid if I can) of me this weekend and see how they look. Even though I've reverted to my original grip my stroke has improved and I'm pocketing more balls, but to not focus on improving my mechanics seems counter productive long term. I play for fun most of the time. I'm not in a league so my wife keeps asking "Why are you so obsessed with getting better, who are you trying to beat?" My response... "EVERYBODY!" (I'm a little competitive)

I'm not book smart but I do learn very quickly with real world, hands on stuff. That may be the only "right" thing about me