turning assitance

A

AkDan

Registered
could use some help on turning. These are not pool cues but the building is extremely similar and any help given would be greatly appreciated.

WHat I am doing is taking 23/64ths soft wood dowels, splicing on square hard wood stock via 4 90 degree V grooves, creating 4 points just like on cues.

The problem I am having is when it comes to rounding. I cant afford a 3k dollar cue lathe and was thinking maybe a old old school lathe would work? (ie something I could make with the assitance of 2 machinists friends), or possibly a harbor freight mini lathe? Any ideas here? thoughts concerns?

here are some pics, you can see the dilema on the first pic. Both some finished by hand foots and a needing to be turned "blank" (Shaft with foot material spliced on). You can also see my crude V groove cutting "sled". Go to the "foots" page.

http://community.webshots.com/user/lilhunter007

I did find some information via email from a fella whose willing to divulge a little into the making of rounding his foots. This is his email:

Hi Dan I turn mine down on a metal lathe using a trim router mounted in the tool post.Of course you need to drill a hole in the foot so you can use a dead center and I use a split plastic bushing on the shaft when I chuck it up.Turn the shaft fairly slow and use the power feed also hold onto the shaft lightly to keep the vibrations down. I hope I have been of some help if you have any more questions give me a jingle. Rod

I am not sure if the first two metal lathes are capable of rigging up a trim router or not. He hasnt responded to the specifics on this set up anymore then this so far. I'll keep ya posted to this.


Again I can't say thanks enough!

Dan
Alaska


Ps,
I have since found 3 lathes I was looking at and could use your opinions/foresite on them.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=33684
-absolute max I can afford with needing all the tools AND shipping A used one like this would be great if you know of any.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=4019
-unsure of through hole diameter as they were not open today but it sure looks promising and for a very good price! Not to much, but not to little....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4346436643
this looked to be the best deal initially. Though I cant find anything on accessories for this specific lathe it still has possibilities. Again the company that makes this lathe was closed today to my knowledge.

I'll know more on these last two lathes as far as specifics goes today....
 
The square stock sections are roughtly 10"es. Total spliced billet (round stock with square spliced on) is 34"es max.

The taig lathes look extremely nice, no doubt, but are just a wee bit out of my price range unless I can find one used.

The one fella that emailed me the other day emailed again this morning and he did say to run the trim router off his tool post he needs appx 14"es between the centers.

edit:

I had thought I saw a mini taig lathe, not the micro. The micro is to small for this application I think as its not quite long enough between centers. The mini lathe I thought was a taig ran close to 600 bucks when all was said and done, not including shipping.
 
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well I found that other lathe. Its in the Lee Valley Catalog. Its still a 9 and 3/4" between center lathe. It just looks different then the micro lathe on Taigs web page. Not sure if there is any signifigant differences or not.

So I did some measuring. My stock to be rounded is 8 & 3/4"es so this lathe will work.

Should I get the metal or the wood working lathe? I've seen guys taking down wood with the metal center post and the fella that emailed was using a trim router mounted to this to take it down. Though this lathe is not big enough to do the trim router method on the power feed.
 
re: lathes

Akdan...You've got the same problem anyone who ever wanted to make a cue has...limited funds (or your post would not be necessary), limited resources, but a desire to solve a problem. Don't think any of the lathes specified will do the job if i understand it right. Do you just have to turn the "foot" part round? Or must you turn the whole 34"? Big difference in what is needed to do the turning. From a 36" metal lathe (1000 lbs, or more) or maybe just a center and a "steady" support and a small router . Btw..what are these things for, sure look cue-ish? Get back with a bit more info, and you'll get your answer on this board. If you made the sled setup, you are capable of coming up with what is needed for the rest of it.
Also need to know how perfect the thing needs to be, straightness, size, smootheness, taper...Cuemakers want stuff perfect, so that dictates equipment, you may not need to go so far.

paul
 
paul fanelli said:
Akdan...You've got the same problem anyone who ever wanted to make a cue has...limited funds (or your post would not be necessary), limited resources, but a desire to solve a problem. Don't think any of the lathes specified will do the job if i understand it right. Do you just have to turn the "foot" part round? Or must you turn the whole 34"? Big difference in what is needed to do the turning. From a 36" metal lathe (1000 lbs, or more) or maybe just a center and a "steady" support and a small router . Btw..what are these things for, sure look cue-ish? Get back with a bit more info, and you'll get your answer on this board. If you made the sled setup, you are capable of coming up with what is needed for the rest of it.
Also need to know how perfect the thing needs to be, straightness, size, smootheness, taper...Cuemakers want stuff perfect, so that dictates equipment, you may not need to go so far.

paul
Click to expand...


Yes I agree, Big difference in what lenth you need to turn, and depending on that a steady might work for a short run with a router, altough don't know about using the power feed, so the cut would not be as nice if hand feeding It. I have a minilathe made at the same factory as the harbor freights lathe, and the spindle bore is not very large, not to mention the short bed lenth. IMO It's only good for tool making and such. I use It in making parts for larger machines I might want to build as well as smaller tools. I also have a minimill I just got from the same factory. Between the 2 of them I am able to do quite a bit, as far as building what I need to do any certain operation, but not too good for much else related to cuebuilding, except maybe small lenths of billet if you figured a way to index. I had used the lathe for tip and ferrel jobs at one time with a extended steady rest I made off the back, but no longer need It for that, as I went to a larger bed lenth lathe. For around the same money, you could get a cast iron bed wood lathe from harbor freights instead, some thomson slides off the famous online auction place, affix those parallel to the lathe somehow and mount a router to them. A simple powerfeed for this should not be too hard to figure out. Have no Idea if this would work for you, but an idea if funds are limited, as they are with many of us small timers. But, for me I would rather learn the hard way if I atleast gain some knowledge from the experience. I would rather not reinvent the wheel if at all possible though. That's what makes this forum so great. Just about Anything can be done when you set your mind to it, just takes longer, and quite a bit more effort. This does not work for everyone, but has worked for me so far. Just a note- If you do get one of those small mini lathes be prepared to clean them, they come packed in some thick, nasty, red grease that protects the machine from rust, and it is like pulling teeth to clean. They also take quite a bit of effort to clean the ways, and ajust the gibs in on them. Good luck in Your efforts wish you all the luck.

Greg
 
AkDan said:
well I found that other lathe. Its in the Lee Valley Catalog. Its still a 9 and 3/4" between center lathe. It just looks different then the micro lathe on Taigs web page. Not sure if there is any signifigant differences or not.

So I did some measuring. My stock to be rounded is 8 & 3/4"es so this lathe will work.

Should I get the metal or the wood working lathe? I've seen guys taking down wood with the metal center post and the fella that emailed was using a trim router mounted to this to take it down. Though this lathe is not big enough to do the trim router method on the power feed.
Click to expand...

Get a cheap import metal lathe, mount a dremmel tool in the tool post, offset the tailstock and let it rip.
 
My 7x12 has roughly 9 in. from chuck to chuck with no center in the headstock chuck, and with the tailstock flush with the end of the bed. I would think that even If you got lucky, this would be the most travel you could probably get from the powerfeed or carraige. that would be with the router mounted on the right side of the toolpost, and the carraige going under the headstock chuck, assuming they would not hit each other. This would be a very tight operation either way, but Might, and I stress Might because I not sure, just get you by. You could squeeze alittle center to to center space out by taking away the tailstock chuck, and replacing It with a center, or using a steady rest as mentioned by someone else, but as far as travel of the carraige, nothing would change from that. There is a site called little machine shop that sells all kinds of parts for these lathes and mills, they have bed extentions for them, but might be cheaper to buy a 7x20 lathe in the first place if you do not already own one. if you only need just under 9 in. of cutting area, then that should give you the lenth for sure. not sure about tapering tough, would depend on the over all lenth of your piece as to whether off setting the tailstock would work or not.


Hope this helps,

Greg
 
Paul,

These are actually arrows for archery. The length I have to turn down is 8 3/4"es, not the complete shaft. If you look at the webshots link, go to foots page (very bottom of the few links there), the very first picture shows the square stock mounted onto the round stock. The square stock is what needs to be taken down withouth getting into any of the round stock. (round stock is port oford cedar, spliced material is a hardwood, in this case purple heart). They sure do look like cues and I am splicing them just like cue a cue maker, but for some reason the rounding is giving me fits.

As far as perfection, as pefect as possible is what I'd like, though the shafts themselves are already not quite pefectly straight. I usually spend quite a bit of time just straightening them before I do anything with them (or throw them out into a 2nds pile if they dont stay straight), not to mention measuring the deflection on how much they bend via a simple spine tester, and weighing them. I had thought about coming up with some kind of home made doweling jig someday in the future so I can make my own as prices for shafts are getting out of hand and they are about to go up with a new Federal Excise Tax going on ALL arrow shafts of any make. If that happens I know how to do this mounting square to square then taking the hole thing down at once. The only problem with this is you have to make literally hundreds just to make a matched set in spine and weight.

The TAIG lathe in the wood working catalog I have is different from the Micro lathe on there page. I think it will work, though without having one around I can only assume it will. I was thinking of possibly finding someone with one and having them turn it down.

As to the router deal. That is just one way I found a guy is doing it. I've seen a guy turn them down on a metal lathe online (the second link is a picture to that in my original post). I am also betting they've taken them down free hand on wood lathes and I know many have done it free hand on belt sanders or grinders. I'm hoping to achieve a little more consistent results then free hand on a grinder/sander. The wood lathe might could work, waiting to hear some results from a fella who mentioned he use's one. The power feed and trim router was just what he preferred. I'm sure it can be done just as good without this feature. If I do to the trim router method I'd need appx 14"es minimum to turn down the square stock of 8 3/4"es as I'd need clearance for the trim router between the end posts.

You know I really wonder how they made cues before they had the 3000 lathes to turn them down on? I've seen a sears router crafter for sale and was thinking of picking it up before going with a metal lathe. I have to say, the cost is right. Its a good 150 bucks less then what I've seen them going for on the favorite bidding site.

I was also thinking, I have a arrow crester. Something that turns the arrow, pretty slowly for putting on pin stripes. It has a bed of appx 24"es. there is two rails on each side with 2 bearings, one on the end, one slides freely on the rails, and a end stop of a extremely small piece of alum angle iron. The motor sits off to the side on a hinge. Mounted to the motor is a 3" diameter plastic wheel with a O-ring on it. This hole deal lowers onto the shaft to spin it. There is a height stop coming up from the bed that is nothing more then a carriage bolt. Loosen a nut and move this up or down to adjust how much pressure the motor puts on the shaft. To little and the shaft will stop spinning while painting due to drag, to much and you'll bend the shafts.

I wonder if I couldnt figure out something like this for a home made lathe. I'll get some pics up of it here in a few minutes. The hard part is going to be the head stock area. As long as I can run the shaft (max diameter 23/64") through the head stock and chuck it up so the foot is just sticking out of the head stock I am fine. Rigging something up to turn a 3 pointed head stock deal (or 4, whatever can handle both internal and external head stock pieces). That way I can clamp right the shaft if need be, or I can use a plastic O ring with slits cut into it and mount it in the outside of the chuck with the shaft running through the chuck. Man I hate it when ya know what you're trying to say and dont know how to word it :)!
 
AkDan said:
Paul,

These are actually arrows for archery. The length I have to turn down is 8 3/4"es, not the complete shaft. If you look at the webshots link, go to foots page (very bottom of the few links there), the very first picture shows the square stock mounted onto the round stock. The square stock is what needs to be taken down withouth getting into any of the round stock. (round stock is port oford cedar, spliced material is a hardwood, in this case purple heart). They sure do look like cues and I am splicing them just like cue a cue maker, but for some reason the rounding is giving me fits.

As far as perfection, as pefect as possible is what I'd like, though the shafts themselves are already not quite pefectly straight. I usually spend quite a bit of time just straightening them before I do anything with them (or throw them out into a 2nds pile if they dont stay straight), not to mention measuring the deflection on how much they bend via a simple spine tester, and weighing them. I had thought about coming up with some kind of home made doweling jig someday in the future so I can make my own as prices for shafts are getting out of hand and they are about to go up with a new Federal Excise Tax going on ALL arrow shafts of any make. If that happens I know how to do this mounting square to square then taking the hole thing down at once. The only problem with this is you have to make literally hundreds just to make a matched set in spine and weight.

The TAIG lathe in the wood working catalog I have is different from the Micro lathe on there page. I think it will work, though without having one around I can only assume it will. I was thinking of possibly finding someone with one and having them turn it down.

As to the router deal. That is just one way I found a guy is doing it. I've seen a guy turn them down on a metal lathe online (the second link is a picture to that in my original post). I am also betting they've taken them down free hand on wood lathes and I know many have done it free hand on belt sanders or grinders. I'm hoping to achieve a little more consistent results then free hand on a grinder/sander. The wood lathe might could work, waiting to hear some results from a fella who mentioned he use's one. The power feed and trim router was just what he preferred. I'm sure it can be done just as good without this feature. If I do to the trim router method I'd need appx 14"es minimum to turn down the square stock of 8 3/4"es as I'd need clearance for the trim router between the end posts.

You know I really wonder how they made cues before they had the 3000 lathes to turn them down on? I've seen a sears router crafter for sale and was thinking of picking it up before going with a metal lathe. I have to say, the cost is right. Its a good 150 bucks less then what I've seen them going for on the favorite bidding site.

I was also thinking, I have a arrow crester. Something that turns the arrow, pretty slowly for putting on pin stripes. It has a bed of appx 24"es. there is two rails on each side with 2 bearings, one on the end, one slides freely on the rails, and a end stop of a extremely small piece of alum angle iron. The motor sits off to the side on a hinge. Mounted to the motor is a 3" diameter plastic wheel with a O-ring on it. This hole deal lowers onto the shaft to spin it. There is a height stop coming up from the bed that is nothing more then a carriage bolt. Loosen a nut and move this up or down to adjust how much pressure the motor puts on the shaft. To little and the shaft will stop spinning while painting due to drag, to much and you'll bend the shafts.

I wonder if I couldnt figure out something like this for a home made lathe. I'll get some pics up of it here in a few minutes. The hard part is going to be the head stock area. As long as I can run the shaft (max diameter 23/64") through the head stock and chuck it up so the foot is just sticking out of the head stock I am fine. Rigging something up to turn a 3 pointed head stock deal (or 4, whatever can handle both internal and external head stock pieces). That way I can clamp right the shaft if need be, or I can use a plastic O ring with slits cut into it and mount it in the outside of the chuck with the shaft running through the chuck. Man I hate it when ya know what you're trying to say and dont know how to word it :)!
Click to expand...






Sounds like your talking about a collet of some sort to hold the arrow in, but not sure. If so we also use these with cues to protect the shafts and for better centering. I am assuming you need some sort of slip collet to work as a clutch, but not sure if I quite follow. In my case I just use standard collets, so I'm not much help there. I would like to experiment with a slip collet/doublewall collet to see if It makes centering any faster and easier, but have not thus far.
 
Wouldn't you also want the spliced wood to be even so that the arrow is balanced. The arrow should sail true instead of a spiral do to uneven weight distibution.
 
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Mike,

Arrow spine is what make them fly true, along with whats called helical fletching. Basically your feathers spine the shaft much like rifling in a rifle bore. If all is done correctly the 4 points come out as close to the same as you can see with the nakid eye which is more then close enough. Even a slight variance although unsightly I am sure wouldnt hurt how a shaft flys as long as they are all spined and weight matched.

CC,

Basically. I was thinking you could take a motor and rig it up to do the same thing a regular mini lathe is doing. I dont need the accuracy of a cue lathe, or even a mini machinist lathe. Thinking of shipping costs here mainly as the small wood lathes that have a big enough through stock the cheapest I could find was 175 bucks, add 50 or 60 for a 3 pionted wood chuck, and double that for shipping, I might as well spend the money on a nice taig lathe or something similar.

I talked to another local machinist today. Actually he's a knife maker but you'd never know with all the machinery he has in his shop. Anyways, he came to the conclusion that rounding these by cutting, as with a lathe or router would do, would cause to much tear at the points. My points are extremely fine compared to a cue, not to mention the wood around it is extremely soft so I have to be careful or you'll end up with flat spots on the soft wood and high spots on the hard wood. A never ending battle there.

He came up with an idea to run it up against a disc sander. Though my disc sander isn't quite big enough to take it down all at once, he thinks the end of the disc will cut into the wood allowing me to take it down in stages. Getting it close then finishing by hand. Basically a hand lathe with a sanding wheel for your cutting device. Using some kind of through stock as a guide and a centering pin on the end, coming in from the side of the disc in stage all of it coming into the disc via a mitre gauge with a home made mitre slot perpendicular VS paralell like most disc's have.

I was thinking a osscilating spindle sander would be perfect, however not a single one I can find (not saying there isnt one I just cant find one), has a mitre slot in it. This would enable me to do the same thing but have minimal contact and minimal clogging, and also make it easier to run the hole thing in one pass at a time, then making another pass, vs stages.

I like the idea but figured I could use some more input.
 
If you have a drill press and pick up an angle drill attachment. You could make a lazy lathe by mouting a pillow block bearing to a wall with a center pressed into it creating a live center.
 
turning problem

AkDan...The surest way to get the results you want require a small metal lathe, but larger than the mini. The spindle bore must be large enough to slip the upper shaft of the arrow through and grip it with a chuck, leaving the square part between the chuck and the tailstock. Of course, the square end must be accurately center drilled. It is not too complex of a job to mount a small router (laminate trimmer) to the carriage, and if your glueup was sound, there shouldn't be any tearout at the points with careful feed control. Slow lathe speed, as the router cutter is doing the work. Cut oversize, speed up lathe and final sand to size. There are many other ways to accomplish the same thing, but the above will give repeatable results in minimun time. I don't know how much time it takes to do now, but I would guess that it could be done in under 5 minutes with a lathe and router. New machinery was never high on my list, and was usually out of reach anyway. Don't know where you are, but sources of used machines exist everywhere, also classified ads by individuals. Great values are to be found if you look. There used to be sold by Sears a small atlas metal lathe, 6' swing, 3/4" hole thru spindle, 18" bed, which would be the ideal size for what you want to do. Hope this helps.
paul
 
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