Unwanted english

[jsp]

if you could hit centerball, or along the middle of the horizontal axis, then you wouldn't be getting unwanted english would you?

We should be careful what we define as "centerball", since the definition depends on one's frame of reference.

Is it a given that if you hit the CB at its exact center from your aiming frame of reference, then you would have absolutely no unwanted english? The answer is no, because it also depends on the angle the cue makes with the surface of CB on contact. If your cue is coming in at an angle that is not exactly 90 degrees tangent to the surface of the CB, then you will impart english, even though you are hitting the CB precisely "centerball" of your frame of reference.

The only way you can guarantee no english on the CB is if you your stroke goes straight throught the spherical center of the CB (of course, assuming your cue tip is symmetric). It is not enough that you know exactly where you're hitting the CB, but you should also be aware pf what angle your cue is contacting the CB.

 

[bruin70]

In what way do you think a flexible shaft is inconsistent?

mike page
fargo

the more "bendable" a shaft is, the less predictable just HOW MUCH it will bend.

stiffer shaft = less bend = you know what the shaft will do when you apply english = consistancy.

one thing a billiard taper gives a 3c player is a consistant hit on a given english shot.

 

[mikepage]

the more "bendable" a shaft is, the less predictable just HOW MUCH it will bend.

stiffer shaft = less bend = you know what the shaft will do when you apply english = consistancy.

one thing a billiard taper gives a 3c player is a consistant hit on a given english shot.

I don't buy this. The shaft is basically doing all its bending after the cueball is gone. The cueball doesn't care how much the shaft bends.

mike page
fargo

 

[Egg McDogit]

Of course not, however, it does depend to a certain degree how you stroke the ball, and the speed of the shot.

How do these 2 things make a difference? Please elaborate

Colin Colenso wrote that if he isn't playing a lot that he tends to get some unwanted English too.

don't see how that's relevant..

It also varies, I find, depending on the balance of the cue. A butt heavy and light shafted cue is much harder, I think, to make pure center ball hits with. There seems to be more chance for the cue to impart unwanted english in that case, although I'm not sure about it.

you seem convinced that it's the cue and not that cue's effect on your stroke, etc.

Also, the vertical and horizontal axis are pretty exacting things. Just being off by maybe 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch can create problems.

there's almost always a margin of error. you'd described a shot where the cueball is 2 diamonds away from the object ball, which is 2 diamonds away from the pocket. if you're missing this short shot because of unwanted english, then you're probably off by more than 1/16 - 1/32 of an inch.

 

[Scaramouche]

My stroke would go on a walkabout. It might be as soon as I started to play a match, part way through a match. Or I could play about as good as I can for a month or more before the stroke went off.

But at some point, my long shots would start to become unpredictable. Very frustrating. When I spent some time trying to figure out what was happening, I found that I was consistently putting right hand spin on the cue ball when I thought I was hitting on the vertical centre line.

The contact point on the cue ball didn't seem to be off, so I concluded that the problem was the angle of the cue coming into the ball, that centre line hits weren't aimed throught the centre of the cue ball. In other words, the cue butt was slightly closer to my body than it was when I was shooting well.

Bought a Stroke Trainer. Using it seems to have dramatically reduced the problem and smoothed my stroke. Had I known about the Third Eye, I might have tried it - small tool with a small price. The Stroke Trainer is a big contraption, 5 1/2 feet long, and much more expensive.

 

[iacas]

THE CUEBALL NEVER LIES..........

you are not hitting it where you want to. you are not cueing properly, and changing shafts is masking a deeper and BASIC problem.

Agreed, you're not hitting the cue ball where you think you are, probably. Your first step is probably to solve that. Then look for a wayward stroke.

The link is to a drill that lets you check where you contact the cue ball. If you don't have an Elephant Ball, try one of the darker stripe balls, like the 15 or something.

 

[JoeyInCali]

My two cents.
Stiffer shafts have a conical shape. Whippy shafts usually have a straight "taper" for a foot or so.
A conical ( as long as it's not extreme ) shaft is easier to point and easier to stroke on a straight line. That's why some people swear by house cues.
They love that half-degree taper on house cues.

 

[bruin70]

if you could hit centerball, or along the middle of the horizontal axis, then you wouldn't be getting unwanted english would you?

you can still have a bad stroke wherein you SPIN the cb because of it,

 

[bruin70]

I don't buy this. The shaft is basically doing all its bending after the cueball is gone. The cueball doesn't care how much the shaft bends.

mike page
fargo

no it's not!.....no way!

a bendable shaft GIVES UPON CONTACT. this is one very important reason why many players turn their cue before shooting so that the shaft grain is positioned in a particular direction. this allows them to predict with better certainty just what the shaft will give the cb upon contact. YOU can even feel it when you hit with a stiff shaft vs a flexable one. the whippy shaft hits softer because it is giving as you hit the cb.

3c players depend on exact cueing and cb execution. the stiffer shaft bends less and imparts a more predictable hit on the cb.
the proof is in the pudding. ask a 3c player.

 

[mikepage]

no it's not!.....no way!

a bendable shaft GIVES UPON CONTACT.

All shafts give about the same amount during the few mm of contact, though squirty shafts don't give quite as much. It is after the cueball is gone that the flexibility comes into play. A stiff shaft will keep going sideways just a handful more mm, while a whippy shaft will go sideways 10+ mm before returning. This means doodlysquat to the cueball though.

this is one very important reason why many players turn their cue before shooting so that the shaft grain is positioned in a particular direction. this allows them to predict with better certainty just what the shaft will give the cb upon contact.

[...]

I think Bob Jewett used to have a particular orientation for his shaft. I can't see where it makes a lot of sense though. Thoughts Bob? Do you think it actually matters for anything?

mike page
fargo

 

[Flex]

You seem to be pretty hung up on this center ball thing... hmmm...

In response to Egg McDogit's post above:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flex
Of course not, however, it does depend to a certain degree how you stroke the ball, and the speed of the shot.

Egg McDogit: How do these 2 things make a difference? Please elaborate

If you stroke the cue ball dead center, or what appears to be dead center, and the cue is coming into the ball in the middle but the angle of the shaft is not *exactly* perpendicular to the axis of the cue ball, and you shoot through it even slightly at an angle, you will get some squirt, no doubt about that. When the cue goes through where the cue ball was during the stroke, if the cue does not travel perfectly straight, perhaps because the stroke goes off when the tip hits the ball, even though you struck the cue ball in the middle, some english will be applied, no way around it. If a bit of english is being applied with a soft stroke, or with a firmer stroke, or a hard stroke, the effects of each will be different, different amounts of squirt will occur, the cue ball may slide on the cloth, it may swerve a bit in one direction or the other, and the further away from the object ball the cue ball is, the more pronounced these various degrees of squirt and english producing throw occuring will be. And all this while thinking the cue ball was being struck with pure center ball. What may start out being a pure center ball hit may not be after the stroke has been struck. It sure does happen to me, and not infrequently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flex
Colin Colenso wrote that if he isn't playing a lot that he tends to get some unwanted English too.

Egg McDogit: don't see how that's relevant..

Although I didn't quote Colin textually, his point was that when he's playing a lot his stroke is better and he's adjusted his hit to be right on, dead center. When his stroke is a bit off, he'll get unwanted english. I mention him in this context to show that even with top players this can be a problem. You may wish to check out Bob Henning's "The Advanced Pro Book" pages 258-260 to find out how to recalibrate your stroke mid-match, if you feel you're slightly off. He explains how to do all this. Very good stuff. I won't transcribe it here. If you'd like to borrow the book, I'll be happy to lend it to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flex
It also varies, I find, depending on the balance of the cue. A butt heavy and light shafted cue is much harder, I think, to make pure center ball hits with. There seems to be more chance for the cue to impart unwanted english in that case, although I'm not sure about it.

Egg McDogit: you seem convinced that it's the cue and not that cue's effect on your stroke, etc.

I am convinced that the cue has a real effect on what happens to the cue ball. The cue can affect the stroke too, IMHO. Some players prefer forward balanced cues, others more rearward balanced ones. The cue makes a difference, as I'm sure you'll agree.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Flex
Also, the vertical and horizontal axis are pretty exacting things. Just being off by maybe 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch can create problems.

Egg McDogit: there's almost always a margin of error. you'd described a shot where the cueball is 2 diamonds away from the object ball, which is 2 diamonds away from the pocket. if you're missing this short shot because of unwanted english, then you're probably off by more than 1/16 - 1/32 of an inch.

What may start out being 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch can be compounded if the cue doesn't travel perfectly through where the cue ball was before being struck. The result if the cue ball is struck softly can often be more pronounced in producing unwanted english and corresponding throw on the object ball than at higher speeds. Do some tests yourself to see if you don't also find this to be true.

While you sure seem to shoot pretty straight, you also seem to shoot very hard a lot of the time. Doing that can minimize the effects of unwanted english. Do you ever find that if you slow roll the cue ball over some distance that the object ball when struck takes a line that is unusual? If so, throw was probably the culprit, perhaps caused by unwanted english. Despite your best efforts at delivering a perfect pure center ball stroke, sometimes one's ability to do so suffers.

Thanks for the questions.

Flex

 

[Egg McDogit]

I'm just a beginner and a streetplayer, but I think the consensus here is that you just need to work on hitting the cueball where you want to.

A lot of people, not just you, have trouble slowrolling balls accurately. Why? Aside from external factors, because it's harder to put a good stroke on the ball. Not stroking the ball well leads to a lot of the problems that you describe.

While you sure seem to shoot pretty straight, you also seem to shoot very hard a lot of the time.

for the record I do NOT shoot straight and I have a really crooked stroke. Just look how crooked my back arm is. I use a lot of stun, which is why I shoot hard.