Unwanted english

[Flex]

Just wondering if others have trouble with imparting undesired english on the cue ball. While I have several shafts and some are super flexible, I've found that when shooting softly at a medium distance, say the cue ball and object ball are 2 diamonds apart, and the pocket is another two diamonds away, that unwanted or unintended english will often throw the object ball enough that I'll miss the shot. A few months ago, I switched to a super stiff shaft that helps minimize this problem. Takes more stroke to move the cue ball around with this shaft, but all in all, it seems to be the way to go, at least for me. Ditto when shooting one rail kicks, much easier to control the rock.

Perhaps there's another way to minimize unwanted english, say by using a different tip.

What do you think?

Flex

 

[davidhop]

Try the Third Eye Stroke Trainer. It is made exactly for the problem that you seem to be having, and is well worth the money.

 

[mikepage]

Just wondering if others have trouble with imparting undesired english on the cue ball. While I have several shafts and some are super flexible, I've found that when shooting softly at a medium distance, say the cue ball and object ball are 2 diamonds apart, and the pocket is another two diamonds away, that unwanted or unintended english will often throw the object ball enough that I'll miss the shot. A few months ago, I switched to a super stiff shaft that helps minimize this problem. Takes more stroke to move the cue ball around with this shaft, but all in all, it seems to be the way to go, at least for me. Ditto when shooting one rail kicks, much easier to control the rock.

Perhaps there's another way to minimize unwanted english, say by using a different tip.

What do you think?
Flex

I think shaft flexibility has nothing to do with it. Instead you either have a swoop in your stroke or you're not lining up the way you think you are or both. The first steps of the solutions are to change your moniker and videotape your stroke or have someone watch you.

Why might it have seemed to get a little better with a new shaft?

--Maybe the tip is a little flatter, masking the problem.

--Maybe the shaft diameter is different, and you use somehow the edge of the shaft in determining where the center of the cueball is.

--Maybe you're shooting with "new cue syndrome," where your mechanics are actually better because you're paying more attention to them.

--Maybe the improvement is an illusion.

mike page
fargo

 

[bruin70]

Just wondering if others have trouble with imparting undesired english on the cue ball. While I have several shafts and some are super flexible, I've found that when shooting softly at a medium distance, say the cue ball and object ball are 2 diamonds apart, and the pocket is another two diamonds away, that unwanted or unintended english will often throw the object ball enough that I'll miss the shot. A few months ago, I switched to a super stiff shaft that helps minimize this problem. Takes more stroke to move the cue ball around with this shaft, but all in all, it seems to be the way to go, at least for me. Ditto when shooting one rail kicks, much easier to control the rock.

Perhaps there's another way to minimize unwanted english, say by using a different tip.

What do you think?

Flex

THE CUEBALL NEVER LIES..........

you are not hitting it where you want to. you are not cueing properly, and changing shafts is masking a deeper and BASIC problem.

 

[Flex]

THE CUEBALL NEVER LIES..........

you are not hitting it where you want to. you are not cueing properly, and changing shafts is masking a deeper and BASIC problem.

That's probably true.

Actually, my vision is really off. I have astigmatism in both eyes, and a really strong prescription. When I look at the cue ball and the object balls, what my eyes see as center ball really isn't center ball at all, and so I need to make adjustments. On an object ball that is 4 diamonds away, my eyesight tells me center ball is one place, but it's actually about 1/4 inch to the left of what I perceive as center ball. I went to the optometrist to fix my prescription and get new glasses, trying to minimize this problem. Guess what? No go... can't do it... So, I have to keep this in mind, especially with straight in shots.

Now, about the unwanted english, you all may say what you want about different shafts and tips and so on, but I KNOW that when I use my Meucci modified black dot shafts with a Talisman hard tip for Mosconi's 101 drill, that up and down table shot to get the cue ball to hit the short rail and come back down to hit my cue's tip, that it's really tough to do it consistently, and there's no doubt that some unwanted english gets applied. When I do that drill with the stiff shaft, I get much better results. I'm results driven... and for the shot I mentioned, I'll stick with the stiffer shaft. It's my way of compensating, for what are probably a legion of flaws.

By the way, I've been videotaped and sought high level professional instruction about all this. I've no doubt the stiffer shaft is more forgiving, and I play more consistently with it.

All that being said, to each his own.

Also, I love spinning shots in. I can do it with just about any cue. It so happens I'm better at it with the custom made stiff shafted cue with a Talisman medium tip, radius inbetween a nickel and a dime.
It really isn't a new shaft for me anymore, because I've been shooting with it exclusively for about three months. For some interesting findings on why this kind of shaft is working better for me, check out the threads Colin Colenso has on finding the pivot point of your shaft and using back hand english.

Cheers!

Flex

P.S. As for my recently chosen moniker and avatar, I like Gleason's focus and serious demeanor. As for the "Spin it in" stuff, it's sometimes the way to go, othertimes not. Opening the mind is a wonderful thing to do.

 

[mikepage]

[...]
Now, about the unwanted english, you all may say what you want about different shafts and tips and so on, but I KNOW that when I use my Meucci modified black dot shafts with a Talisman hard tip for Mosconi's 101 drill, that up and down table shot to get the cue ball to hit the short rail and come back down to hit my cue's tip, that it's really tough to do it consistently, and there's no doubt that some unwanted english gets applied. When I do that drill with the stiff shaft, I get much better results. I'm results driven... and for the shot I mentioned, I'll stick with the stiffer shaft. It's my way of compensating, for what are probably a legion of flaws.
[...]

I understand being "results driven," choosing to use the stick that gets the job done.

But you're going beyond that and choosing one of the many differences between the sticks (the shaft flexibility) and suggesting it is the cause of the difference you see. That is what I question.

I cannot think of a plausibile mechanism that would make shaft flexibility cause different amounts of spin or unwanted spin. I suggested a few possible differences between the cues that have at least a plausible mechanism for leading to unwanted spin with one and not the other. I can think of more.

Maybe the balance is different, and because you grip, say, the rear balanced cue further back, a stroke flaw comes more into play.

mike page
fargo

 

[bruin70]

That's probably true.
When I do that drill with the stiff shaft, I get much better results. I'm results driven... and for the shot I mentioned, I'll stick with the stiffer shaft. It's my way of compensating, for what are probably a legion of flaws.
.

the reason the stiff shaft is giving your better results is because a stiff shaft is more CONSISTANT than a more flexable shaft. it is not more "forgiving" in the context you mean(as i think by "forgiving" you mean a shaft that compensates for your mis-cueing). also, you are cueing better on that drill because all you're doing is focusing on cueing correctly. you are not aiming at an ob, nor are you aiming to pocket an ob,,,you are simpy aiming centerball to a spot. it is a drill with no realtime application.

By the way, I've been videotaped and sought high level professional instruction about all this. I've no doubt the stiffer shaft is more forgiving, and I play more consistently with it.

.

once again, a stiff shaft is not more forgiving, it is more consistant and thus more PREDICTABLE.

Also, I love spinning shots in. I can do it with just about any cue..

if you LOVE putting english on the ball, then this might be causing you to put more or less on the cb than you think

 

[Flex]

I understand being "results driven," choosing to use the stick that gets the job done.

But you're going beyond that and choosing one of the many differences between the sticks (the shaft flexibility) and suggesting it is the cause of the difference you see. That is what I question.

I cannot think of a plausibile mechanism that would make shaft flexibility cause different amounts of spin or unwanted spin. I suggested a few possible differences between the cues that have at least a plausible mechanism for leading to unwanted spin with one and not the other. I can think of more.

Maybe the balance is different, and because you grip, say, the rear balanced cue further back, a stroke flaw comes more into play.

mike page
fargo

Well, the shaft flexibility really is a cause for different results, from my tests. It's probably also due to other factors. When I shoot with my modified black dot shaft, I get some great results, depending on the shot. This shaft is way flexible, I retapered it down to about 11.75 mm, and drilled out the top 3 1/2 inches or so, something like the Predator. Talisman hard tip. This shaft on a Meucci butt squirts a lot less than a Predator. I have a predator shaft too, and know the difference. The difference is HUGE. And the overall cue weight with the Meucci butt is about 18 ounces. It plays certain extreme english shots at speed fantastically well. However, it's very easy for the cue ball to get away from me. And the extremely slight differences in touch and stroke lead to large differences on the table, especially if a touch of english is on the cue ball when it contacts a rail.

I understand there are speed control dynamics in the mix too, which further complicate things. In any case, I have different shafts for different purposes. I have the Ed Young made stiff shaft, two modified Meucci black-dots, another modified/retapered/hollowed out regular shaft, a Predator and two other shafts I use for jumping.

Joey Gold (Cognoscenti cues) was playing some one pocket with an excellent player who was using a tweaked out sneaky pete, that would juice the ball at will. Joey hadn't shot for some months and has this money game with the other fellow. After his match was over, I asked him why he wanted the stiffest shafted cue in the place to use. He told me that the stiffer shafted cue was easier to control the cue ball, and showed me by setting up a straight in shot, with the cue ball about 12 inches from the object ball. He started shooting little draw shots, drawing the cue ball back to a SPECIFIC point on the table, not just an area, but a specific point. He said to set this shot up and play around with it, and then to try to do the same with the flexible cue that moves the cue ball with ease. He said a really good player can do incredible things with the flexibly shafted, small tipped cue, but that if his game is a bit off, that he'll have more trouble. With the stiffer shafted cue, his game can be a bit off and still achieve respectable results.

Guess what? I tried his little test, and found out it worked for me.

It also made me work on developing a better stroke. I love juicing the ball, but sure do avoid it because it's less predictable. That being said, there are situations when one is out of line where anything less than a power stroke with english will be unsatisfactory. At that moment, I've found that the stiffer shaft works more consistently well for me.

Thanks for your comments

Flex

 

[Flex]

the reason the stiff shaft is giving your better results is because a stiff shaft is more CONSISTANT than a more flexable shaft. it is not more "forgiving" in the context you mean(as i think by "forgiving" you mean a shaft that compensates for your mis-cueing). {I've found that as little as 1/8 or 1/4 of a tip difference in cueing can make a big difference in results, and the stiffer shaft reduces those difference, that's why I've chosen to use the term "forgiving" although "predictable" or "consistent" are terms that also may apply } also, you are cueing better on that drill because all you're doing is focusing on cueing correctly. you are not aiming at an ob, nor are you aiming to pocket an ob,,,you are simpy aiming centerball to a spot. it is a drill with no realtime application.



once again, a stiff shaft is not more forgiving, it is more consistant and thus more PREDICTABLE.



if you LOVE putting english on the ball, then this might be causing you to put more or less on the cb than you think

I agree with you.

Thanks,

Flex

 

[Egg McDogit]

instead of trying to find some tip or shaft to minimize the effects of your problem, solve the problem itself and learn to hit centerball.

someone else recommended the 3rd eye trainer. maybe that's a good idea.
also, you have an upright stance. your head is pretty far from the cueball and cue. if you have eye problems, it may be a good idea to get down lower and put your chin on the cue. this will give you very consistent sighting of both the cueball and the object ball so you can at least be aware of and learn from your mistakes.

Just wondering if others have trouble with imparting undesired english on the cue ball.

Perhaps there's another way to minimize unwanted english, say by using a different tip.

 

[Flex]

instead of trying to find some tip or shaft to minimize the effects of your problem, solve the problem itself and learn to hit centerball.

someone else recommended the 3rd eye trainer. maybe that's a good idea.
also, you have an upright stance. your head is pretty far from the cueball and cue. if you have eye problems, it may be a good idea to get down lower and put your chin on the cue. this will give you very consistent sighting of both the cueball and the object ball so you can at least be aware of and learn from your mistakes.

Good suggestions. I can hit center ball, but that's not the be all and end all of playing pool. There's much more to it than that, and always a lot to learn.

I'll have to get the third eye trainer and see if it helps.

As for my stance, it varies, I know that, and I go with what feels best. At times it's down for certain shots, other shots I need a different perspective.

Tough game, but challenging.

Flex

 

[TheConArtist]

THE CUEBALL NEVER LIES..........

you are not hitting it where you want to. you are not cueing properly, and changing shafts is masking a deeper and BASIC problem.

I love this, and i can say i do intend to put english on the ball that i did not need. The drills i have been doing is using the stripe ball and putting the stripe up and down to see if i am hitting it off center. And i was most of the time cause i always thought if you get on the correct side of the objectball then you don't need english just follow, draw and stun. But this doesn't always happen so i have to use english. Thats why i love learning BHE, and finding my PP.

Note: Bruin if you don't mind can i use this for my Signature.

 

[mikepage]

the reason the stiff shaft is giving your better results is because a stiff shaft is more CONSISTANT than a more flexable shaft. [...]

In what way do you think a flexible shaft is inconsistent?

mike page
fargo

 

[JohnMorton]

Flex, I would try this if I were you. Line up just the CB, shoot to the end rail with center ball only for about 10 shots. If the CB comes straight back, you're doing good. If not, make an adjustment. Then try it with top center for another 10 shots. Then bottom center for another 10. I think you'll be surprised with the results after the top and bottom drill. Make adjustments accordingly. Try it with different speeds too. Hope this helps, peace, John.

 

[Flex]

Flex, I would try this if I were you. Line up just the CB, shoot to the end rail with center ball only for about 10 shots. If the CB comes straight back, you're doing good. If not, make an adjustment. Then try it with top center for another 10 shots. Then bottom center for another 10. I think you'll be surprised with the results after the top and bottom drill. Make adjustments accordingly. Try it with different speeds too. Hope this helps, peace, John.

Great suggestions, John. Especially the bottom drill. I do the center ball and top already, the bottom one I find to be more difficult. Question for you: How should I shoot the bottom shot? I can do this so-so, and have the cue ball coming straight back a lot, but it's somewhat speed dependent. Am I supposed to be powering the ball, as if I'm shooting a power draw? If so, that works alright. Slow things down a bit however, and it gets a bit messy. Is this drill to be shot at all at all speeds?

Flex

 

[JohnMorton]

Great suggestions, John. Especially the bottom drill. I do the center ball and top already, the bottom one I find to be more difficult. Question for you: How should I shoot the bottom shot? I can do this so-so, and have the cue ball coming straight back a lot, but it's somewhat speed dependent. Am I supposed to be powering the ball, as if I'm shooting a power draw? If so, that works alright. Slow things down a bit however, and it gets a bit messy. Is this drill to be shot at all at all speeds?

Flex

Yes, I would try it at all speeds. Not as hard as you would when you break the balls because you couldn't really get too much info out of that, unless you were to let the CB go up and down the table, which also isn't a bad idea. So, yes, try it at your break speed too. But, when you hit it with the softer speeds is when you will get the most info. Watch the roll of the CB more than the line because the table could be off a little. When I say "roll", I mean the side spin. If the CB is not coming straight back but it has no side spin, then it's probably the table. Okay, try this, when you hit it slow and low, watch the CB up until the point it rolls over to follow. If the CB is spinning to either side, then you need to make an adjustment in your stroke. Try speeds that will hold the draw all the way to the end rail, then see if the CB is coming off at an angle. Does this all make sense? Hope it helps, John.

 

[Flex]

Yes, I would try it at all speeds. Not as hard as you would when you break the balls because you couldn't really get too much info out of that, unless you were to let the CB go up and down the table, which also isn't a bad idea. So, yes, try it at your break speed too. But, when you hit it with the softer speeds is when you will get the most info. Watch the roll of the CB more than the line because the table could be off a little. When I say "roll", I mean the side spin. If the CB is not coming straight back but it has no side spin, then it's probably the table. Okay, try this, when you hit it slow and low, watch the CB up until the point it rolls over to follow. If the CB is spinning to either side, then you need to make an adjustment in your stroke. Try speeds that will hold the draw all the way to the end rail, then see if the CB is coming off at an angle. Does this all make sense? Hope it helps, John.

Makes perfect sense; thanks so much!

One other question.

How low on the cue ball should I go when doing this? The farther down one goes, the more difficult I find it to be to shoot straight. One tip, tip and a half, two tips?

Flex

Flex

 

[Egg McDogit]

if you could hit centerball, or along the middle of the horizontal axis, then you wouldn't be getting unwanted english would you?

Good suggestions. I can hit center ball, but that's not the be all and end all of playing pool. There's much more to it than that, and always a lot to learn.

 

[JohnMorton]

Makes perfect sense; thanks so much!

One other question.

How low on the cue ball should I go when doing this? The farther down one goes, the more difficult I find it to be to shoot straight. One tip, tip and a half, two tips?

Flex

Flex

2 tips is more than most people think. That's a bit too far for ANY shot, IMO. But, sure, as low as you can get w/o a miscue, I'd say. Good luck.

 

[Flex]

if you could hit centerball, or along the middle of the horizontal axis, then you wouldn't be getting unwanted english would you?

Of course not, however, it does depend to a certain degree how you stroke the ball, and the speed of the shot. Colin Colenso wrote that if he isn't playing a lot that he tends to get some unwanted English too. It also varies, I find, depending on the balance of the cue. A butt heavy and light shafted cue is much harder, I think, to make pure center ball hits with. There seems to be more chance for the cue to impart unwanted english in that case, although I'm not sure about it.

Also, the vertical and horizontal axis are pretty exacting things. Just being off by maybe 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch can create problems.

That's one of the reasons I've been working with BHE and pivot points for a few weeks. I think the pivot point stuff that Colin Colenso posted on here is very important, and very helpful.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

Flex