Unwritten Tournament Rules?

[Jude Rosenstock]

I was at APA regionals this year and a teammate of mine was playing nineball needing a couple points (5 I think) with the opponent needing 1 point. She gets down to shoot a realitively easy shot, gets bumped by someone not paying attention and her cue touches the cue ball. Moves it maybe 3-4 inches. The opponent calls foul and she stops everything, goes and talks to the regional director and he tells her it is a ball and hand foul, nothing he can do about it. He seemed to want to do something, but realized he couldn't.

The other person takes ball in hand and makes his one ball to eliminate her in the semi's for a singles trip to vegas. I felt bad, I would have let her reset the shot no matter what the rules stated. Chances of her running 5 balls where pretty low, as she is a 2 and the table wasn't super easy. I guess sometimes I just don't want to win that way. On the other side the guy ended up getting beat in the finals pretty handedly, so maybe that's karma coming around.

This is a perfect example of one of my BIGGEST complaints about the APA. There are way too many people who ref who aren't qualified. I mean, you're going to have your occasional disagreement with a referee no matter where you go but I feel the BCA refs would NEVER make such a horrible mistake as the one in your story did.

 

[rope_one]

This is a perfect example of one of my BIGGEST complaints about the APA. There are way too many people who ref who aren't qualified. I mean, you're going to have your occasional disagreement with a referee no matter where you go but I feel the BCA refs would NEVER make such a horrible mistake as the one in your story did.

I am not sure that he made an actual mistake. I need to double check the rule book myself to see if it is covered, but I actually think he called it right by the rules as written. I had more of a problem with the person that took ball in hand and the guy that actually bumped her.

I will double check the rules.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I was at APA regionals this year and a teammate of mine was playing nineball needing a couple points (5 I think) with the opponent needing 1 point. She gets down to shoot a realitively easy shot, gets bumped by someone not paying attention and her cue touches the cue ball. Moves it maybe 3-4 inches. The opponent calls foul and she stops everything, goes and talks to the regional director and he tells her it is a ball and hand foul, nothing he can do about it. He seemed to want to do something, but realized he couldn't. ...

Is that really what the APA rules say? Some rule sets are really, really bad, but for leagues, the APA is not the worst.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I am not sure that he made an actual mistake. I need to double check the rule book myself to see if it is covered, but I actually think he called it right by the rules as written. I had more of a problem with the person that took ball in hand and the guy that actually bumped her.

I will double check the rules.

If this is a foul then the APA has completed its journey to Clowndom. Seriously, that would be the most stupid thing I've ever heard.

 

[rope_one]

If this is a foul then the APA has completed its journey to Clowndom. Seriously, that would be the most stupid thing I've ever heard.

Not to bash the APA, but I did re-read both the 8-9 ball rules and the team rule book for this specific incident and it doesn't look like it is covered. I think it falls into as the thread title says "Unwritten rules" or its just a foul based on the rules as the stand. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding them. (Note I am specifically talking about the national rules, not local bi-laws since they mean nothing at regional events.)

 

[soulcatcher]

Is that really what the APA rules say? Some rule sets are really, really bad, but for leagues, the APA is not the worst.

No. There is actually not any rule pertaining to interference in the APA manual. However, as Jude stated, The ref needs to be well enough educated to make a call like this. APA is meant to be an "Amature" league. I have had call where I thought it would be a foul, but when I contacted league offices later, found out it was not.

Case in point: (not interference)

My player had one ball and the 8 ball on the table, and the opponent had 4 balls left. My player called a timeout, as she had not shot. I showed a carom shot, hitting her ball into the opponents ball, then pocketing her ball. As I was walking away from the table, she shot it by hitting her ball, not the cue ball, because she was so excited she could see what I was talking about with the carom, she forgot to address the cue ball. Her ball went straight into the pocket off the opponents ball, and nothing touched the cue ball. The opponent asked if this was a foul, and I said yes. He missed a shot and my player won anyway.

When I contacted the APA office later to confirm this, they stated this would not be a foul as long as nothing hit the cue ball during the shot. All balls should be reset and the shot replayed.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Not to bash the APA, but I did re-read both the 8-9 ball rules and the team rule book for this specific incident and it doesn't look like it is covered. I think it falls into as the thread title says "Unwritten rules" or its just a foul based on the rules as the stand. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding them. (Note I am specifically talking about the national rules, not local bi-laws since they mean nothing at regional events.)

On page 2, it says:

"Relax, enjoy yourself and play within the Spirit of the Rules as well as the written rules. Common sense must prevail..."

Not everything is covered by ANY rulebook but it's important to be fair to the shooter. This ref dropped the ball and this may be my opinion but I'm right.

 

[rope_one]

I never understood things like "common sense must prevail" as a rule, it seems lazy and leaves too much open to the discretion of a ref (and in this case I believe as you stated they got it wrong). Of course, the APA rules are better written than any of the local leagues I have played in with one page of rules, that covers about 70% of what happens. Anyway, sorry for hi-jacking this thread with that APA tangent.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I never understood things like "common sense must prevail" as a rule, it seems lazy and leaves too much open to the discretion of a ref (and in this case I believe as you stated they got it wrong). Of course, the APA rules are better written than any of the local leagues I have played in with one page of rules, that covers about 70% of what happens. Anyway, sorry for hi-jacking this thread with that APA tangent.

No, I think it's important to recognize that the rules are NOT complete. Not every situation is covered here. The book devotes most of its contents to league specific information like proper score keeping and playoffs. If you are going to look to that book for the answer to every question, you're going to be disappointed A LOT. There are going to be occasional rulings that could go either way but in the face of what is obviously fair, "common sense must prevail!" A lot of APA league players don't read that second page and it's so important THEY PUT IT BEFORE EVERY OTHER RULE.

It's not lazy. It's telling people to think.

 

[Snapshot9]

I have never

hit the coin mechanism because I always have to put my wooden box down first to stand on! .......

No, really, I would forever tear shorts, especially white tennis shorts, on the metal corner going around the pocket. It would catch the pocket and rip them down the side.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... It's not lazy. It's telling people to think.

The problem is that two reasonable people might come up with different conclusions in the same situation. Two unreasonable opponents or team captains are certain to come up with different conclusions. The rule book should cover nearly all common situations. I think being bumped is fairly common.

 

[Jen_Cen]

The problem is that two reasonable people might come up with different conclusions in the same situation. Two unreasonable opponents or team captains are certain to come up with different conclusions. The rule book should cover nearly all common situations. I think being bumped is fairly common.

ESPECIALLY playing in a bar, when people have to maneuver around your game to get to the restrooms.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

The problem is that two reasonable people might come up with different conclusions in the same situation. Two unreasonable opponents or team captains are certain to come up with different conclusions. The rule book should cover nearly all common situations. I think being bumped is fairly common.

While I agree the rules SHOULD cover such a situation, I still believe any intelligent person is going to recommend to play the shot over. Regardless, a referee should be trained in their craft. The APA rules were born out of the BCA rules hence APA referees should have at least SOME BCA referee training. In fact, many APA referees in Vegas are the same ones for BCA. The APA rulebook is a joke. They have to recognize how serious their following is. Give them the respect they deserve and dish them everything they can grasp.

 

[rope_one]

The problem is that two reasonable people might come up with different conclusions in the same situation. Two unreasonable opponents or team captains are certain to come up with different conclusions. The rule book should cover nearly all common situations. I think being bumped is fairly common.

Excellent point, you said what I was trying to get across very well. What is reasonable during a normal discussion, in the heat of the moment between competitive people, often gets heavily debated if it's not clearly defined.

I only see one or two things (i.e. this interference discussion, is it a foul on bumping a ball out of the path of a traveling cue ball?, etc) that the APA rules don't cover well. (And yes in a bar environment interfernce is common unfortunately.)

I think Jude's point is also very appropriate, the APA does need to realize how much influence they have in "Amateur" pool and really try to cover as many common situation as possible. I love the line about dish them everything they can handle. Anytime any group can educate people on playing in a way that makes it fun and thought provoking, its a good thing for the sport overall.

I sent a quick email to the National office to this effect, if I see a response I will post it here.