UPA Sanctioning - Q&A

[UPA President]

Frank, to help you quote me I am typing the questions above in red below.

It was your mandate at one time wasn't it ?

So what verification were you looking for from him ?

When was the mandate regarding the up front funds from the promoters changed?
Was there a press release about this ?

Yes, it was our mandate and a requirement. It worked for some and not for others. Unfortunately this put promoters and players at odds and it became an issue.

Mr. Hansen would not even submit a bank statement, this was cause for alarm along with a few other indications.

I cannot give you exact time of change. In the past the UPA was not very PR savvy and now we try to save PR's for items that the general industry may care to know. (Obviously this is a judgement call).

Hope this helps...

 

[MikeJanis]

Yes, it was our mandate and a requirement. It worked for some and not for others. Unfortunately this put promoters and players at odds and it became an issue.

Mr. Hansen would not even submit a bank statement, this was cause for alarm along with a few other indications.

I cannot give you exact time of change. In the past the UPA was not very PR savvy and now we try to save PR's for items that the general industry may care to know. (Obviously this is a judgement call).

Hope this helps...

Frank, I am sincere in my inquirey about a PR regarding the guaranteed funding change. The reason is, if I had known there was a change in agenda I would have sanctiond my SCO events and my Nationals with the UPA. In the past I was told that I had to post up front.

If there was a PR and you know the approximate date we can look it up in the archives at several news sources.

As an avid reader of all pool mags, forums and billiard related web sites I do not recall ever seeing such a thing.

Sorry buddy, but I have to call you out on this one.

 

[UPA President]

Frank, I am sincere in my inquirey about a PR regarding the guaranteed funding change. The reason is, if I had known there was a change in agenda I would have sanctiond my SCO events and my Nationals with the UPA. In the past I was told that I had to post up front.

If there was a PR and you know the approximate date we can look it up in the archives at several news sources.

As an avid reader of all pool mags, forums and billiard related web sites I do not recall ever seeing such a thing.

Sorry buddy, but I have to call you out on this one.

I am missing something here I think. I do not believe that there was such a PR. However always feel free to "call me out" on something. I am not too proud to stand corrected.

Thank you.

 

[MikeJanis]

Thank you Mr. Janis, I am not too proud to stand corrected. I do not recall the release at all, and I consider myself to have a good memory. If you happen to come across it I would actually love to see it. Keep in mind that the days of Charlie Williams as president didn't mean I was aware of all items such as this. Mr. Williams is a tireless worker and I was still very new to the industry and still trying to learn the game.

Thank you.

Frank, at this link from AZBilliards.com you can find almost every UPA press realeas and/or articles with the word UPA in it. http://azbilliards.com/showsearch.cfm

I couldn't find it anywhere in the list. It dates back to May of 2003.

What year was the mandate changed and who voted and how ?

Honestly, this would have been big news to the promoters that wanted to host events and sanction them with the UPA. I am positive something as big as this would have increased the amount of UPA events many times over had anyone known before now.

I myself would have sanctioned 3 or 4 events or more with the UPA had I been privy to this change in mandate.



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[MikeJanis]

I am missing something here I think. I do not believe that there was such a PR. However always feel free to "call me out" on something. I am not too proud to stand corrected.

Thank you.

Frank, based on your statement of:

I cannot give you exact time of change. In the past the UPA was not very PR savvy and now we try to save PR's for items that the general industry may care to know. (Obviously this is a judgement call).

Hope this helps...

I assumed that a PR was issued but you didn't have access to it.

Now you state that "I do not believe that there was such a PR." and I stand corrected.

However, in my above post and again now a I ask "What year was the mandate changed and who voted and how ?"

 

[UPA President]

Frank, at this link from AZBilliards.com you can find almost every UPA press realeas and/or articles with the word UPA in it. http://azbilliards.com/showsearch.cfm

I couldn't find it anywhere in the list. It dates back to May of 2003.

What year was the mandate changed and who voted and how ?

Honestly, this would have been big news to the promoters that wanted to host events and sanction them with the UPA. I am positive something as big as this would have increased the amount of UPA events many times over had anyone known before now.

I myself would have sanctioned 3 or 4 events with the UPA had I been privy to this change in mandate.



31-Aug-03 Dragon wins in Philly
06-Jul-03 Ditoro declines WPC invitation
04-Jun-03 Big Apple Challenge signs with UPA
23-May-03 Archer and Deuel remain atop UPA Points Lists [/I][/COLOR]

This is a really cool feature. It happened before Young Wa Jung (spelling wrong) won Brady Berhman's event. It had to be late 2002 or early 2003. Because this was the first issue of payouts.

Again, it is my position that there was no PR on the change. I don't doubt that the UPA made a mistake by not announcing such a thing. This is one of our many unfortunate growing pains.

I apologize for this now...

 

[UPA President]

Frank, based on your statement of:

I assumed that a PR was issued but you didn't have access to it.

Now you state that "I do not believe that there was such a PR." and I stand corrected.

However, in my above post a I asked "What year was the mandate changed and who voted and how ?"

Sorry I was not clear. I meant that we were not PR savvy in that we should have sent out such items and we did not.

I'll get this forum thing down yet.

 

[MikeJanis]

OK, I am now clear on everything.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my obnoxious questions.


Frank, I also humbly ask that you forgive me for my previous writing in other threads on AZ regarding the questions you just answered. Especially if you feel they are bashing the UPA and/or yourself. They were not meant that way.

At the same time as I feel bad for what happend to everyone involved and I am asking for you forgiveness I have to ask.

Without the Guaranteed funding and the WPA points through UPA events what service is the UPA providing to its members ?

Also, many do not undersatnd that the UPA in itself is not a tour but more of a players union. Can you please clarify this difference with what the UPA actually is and/or correct me if I am wrong?


Thanks,

Mj

 

[UPA President]

Frank, based on your statement of:

I assumed that a PR was issued but you didn't have access to it.

Now you state that "I do not believe that there was such a PR." and I stand corrected.

However, in my above post and again now a I ask "What year was the mandate changed and who voted and how ?"

1. I do not believe there was a PR issued. Please forgive my misreading something here.

2. I thought you were telling me that there was PR issued, therefor I believe I "stood corrected." But this was only a part of my misreading.

3. I believe the mandate changed in late 2002 or early 2003.

4. Player reps voted and notified players, players understood and agreed. The board agreed as well, really had no choice. It was all very new and easy back then.

I hope this helps...

 

[UPA President]

OK, I am now clear on everything.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my obnoxious questions.


Frank, I also humbly ask that you forgive me for my previous writing in other threads on AZ regarding the questions you just answered.

At the same time as I feel bafd for what happend and I am asking for you forgiveness I have to ask.

Without the Guaranteed funding and the WPA points through UPA events what service is the UPA providing to its members ?

Also, many do not undersatnd that the UPA in itself is not a tour but more of a players union. Can you please clarify this difference with what the UPA actually is and/or correct me if I am wrong?

Thanks,

Mj

1. I don't believe your questions are obnoxious. If I feel someone is simply playing games I won't bother, frankly I don't have the time. I dont' get this feeling from you Mr. Janis.

2. You do not have to ask for forgiveness, however I appreciate your sentiment on the matter. I am happy to help. Perhaps this is once again a UPA fault.

3. The players in our industry are the heros of the sport. Our industry is very ... odd in many aspects. Though our industry respects our players on the table they are not respected off the table. I will not get into whether or not this is their fault, I think we are all guilty somehow. The UPA is fundamentaly their association and their tour. If the UPA is weak or strong it is ONLY because the players allow this. It is our opinion that the WPA matter is by no means over. At the end of the day it's the player's to give away. Charlie Williams showed the player how to attain, and keep. They will either stand up or let it go. It is my job as president to show options and show logical outcomes. Many players do not understand the industry and how it works which means they do not directly know how it affects their lives.

4. Many do not understand the UPA. Sometimes not even our players. This will change and will become very clear soon. Understand that the UPA is really the player's tour. This affords the players the right to act as a union in many ways. Now many in our industry do not realize this but when I became the president I changed the structure so that players could literally own the tour. This means two very important facts for players; a) players actually govern themselves within their own industry (rules, format, standards, etc). b) players could consider their tour an actual investment of resource and time. No where else in the U.S. can they do this.

Does this help?

 

[MikeJanis]

1. I don't believe your questions are obnoxious. If I feel someone is simply playing games I won't bother, frankly I don't have the time. I don't' get this feeling from you Mr. Janis.

2. You do not have to ask for forgiveness, however I appreciate your sentiment on the matter. I am happy to help. Perhaps this is once again a UPA fault.

3. The players in our industry are the heros of the sport. Our industry is very ... odd in many aspects. Though our industry respects our players on the table they are not respected off the table. I will not get into whether or not this is their fault, I think we are all guilty somehow. The UPA is fundamentaly their association and their tour. If the UPA is weak or strong it is ONLY because the players allow this. It is our opinion that the WPA matter is by no means over. At the end of the day it's the player's to give away. Charlie Williams showed the player how to attain, and keep. They will either stand up or let it go. It is my job as president to show options and show logical outcomes. Many players do not understand the industry and how it works which means they do not directly know how it affects their lives.

4. Many do not understand the UPA. Sometimes not even our players. This will change and will become very clear soon. Understand that the UPA is really the player's tour. This affords the players the right to act as a union in many ways. Now many in our industry do not realize this but when I became the president I changed the structure so that players could literally own the tour. This means two very important facts for players; a) players actually govern themselves within their owen industry (rules, format, standards, etc). b) players could consider their tour an actual investment of resource and time. No where else in the U.S. can they do this.

Does this help?

Yes Frank that does help a bit.

I am curious as to the strength of the union. Are the UPA players planning on boycotting the coming BCA's EnjoyPool.com 9-Ball Championships in June ?

If they are, please provide us with the names of the players that will be dropping out of the event.

If they are planning on and follow through with this boycott this would be an extremely strong statement by the players in support of their union.

Thanks,

Mj

 

[MikeJanis]

Frank, as a note to you and the UPA, I believe you should delete the words "guaranteed prize funds" from the UPA web site since this is not what the UPA is offering nor has it been since late 2002 or early 2003.

from UPA website:

UPA Current Agenda
To provide unsurpassed levels of leadership, guidance, and organization that will benefit professional pool players in the United States through a published schedule of events complete with tournament promotion, guaranteed prize funds, and a fair and uniform ranking system.

Do you think that would be fair ?

 

[UPA President]

Yes Frank that does help a bit.

I am curious as to the strength of the union. Are the UPA players planning on boycotting the coming BCA's EnjoyPool.com 9-Ball Championships in June ?

If they are, please provide us with the names of the players that will be dropping out of the event.

If they are planning on and follow through with this boycott this would be an extremely strong statement by the players in support of their union.

Thanks,

Mj

1. To be honest players speak of it, however I personally do not encourage it for several reasons. This is not a week long or even a month long "debate." The players need time to digest, they have people in the industry trying to influence them in many ways. The bottom line is the players will do what is best for them, UPA or not. The issue for the players is not their anger or resolve on the matter, it's simply their options. This all happend so fast and we were competely blind sided. It's like coming out of a car crash and then starting an investigation as to what happened.

2. The players know and believe that they need a union. At the end of the day it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that manufacturers care about sales, not tournament rules, guidelines, sanctioning issues, points distribution, min addeds, and the myriad of other issues that greatly effect a players life.

Keep'm coming...

 

[UPA President]

Frank, as a note to you and the UPA, I believe you should delete the words "guaranteed prize funds" from the UPA web site since this is not what the UPA is offering nor has it been since late 2002 or early 2003.

from UPA website:

UPA Current Agenda
To provide unsurpassed levels of leadership, guidance, and organization that will benefit professional pool players in the United States through a published schedule of events complete with tournament promotion, guaranteed prize funds, and a fair and uniform ranking system.

Do you think that would be fair ?

I understand your line of thinking. However it truly is our agenda for each event. Also keep in mind that all UPA events (UPA promoted) the money is in fact guaranteed as we have direct control of monies. This also does continue to happen with other promoters such as Dragon Promotions.

Also keep in mind that it is very helpful in not wasting time wth new promoters. We get promoters calling us all the time and this point (stated on the site) helps us to clear straight to those that are serious.

We are always open to suggestions.

 

[BigCat]

1. I don't believe your questions are obnoxious. If I feel someone is simply playing games I won't bother, frankly I don't have the time. I dont' get this feeling from you Mr. Janis.

2. You do not have to ask for forgiveness, however I appreciate your sentiment on the matter. I am happy to help. Perhaps this is once again a UPA fault.

3. The players in our industry are the heros of the sport. Our industry is very ... odd in many aspects. Though our industry respects our players on the table they are not respected off the table. I will not get into whether or not this is their fault, I think we are all guilty somehow. The UPA is fundamentaly their association and their tour. If the UPA is weak or strong it is ONLY because the players allow this. It is our opinion that the WPA matter is by no means over. At the end of the day it's the player's to give away. Charlie Williams showed the player how to attain, and keep. They will either stand up or let it go. It is my job as president to show options and show logical outcomes. Many players do not understand the industry and how it works which means they do not directly know how it affects their lives.

4. Many do not understand the UPA. Sometimes not even our players. This will change and will become very clear soon. Understand that the UPA is really the player's tour. This affords the players the right to act as a union in many ways. Now many in our industry do not realize this but when I became the president I changed the structure so that players could literally own the tour. This means two very important facts for players; a) players actually govern themselves within their own industry (rules, format, standards, etc). b) players could consider their tour an actual investment of resource and time. No where else in the U.S. can they do this.

Does this help?

I find the above bolded statement to be very incorrect. For this to be a "tour", the UPA would have to hold multiple tournaments a year that are initiated and promoted by the UPA. Instead, the UPA only seems to come along to certain events, that would take place anyways, and add their sanctioning. In my opinion, this does not encapsulate a "pro tour". The UPA is merely riding the coat tails of other successful events that would go off with or without the UPA's blessing (DCC, U.S. Open, etc...). However, this is just my viewpoint.

To say the UPA is a player's tour is a gross misrepresentation. I do not believe the UPA is a tour, it is merely an association for the players.

Ray

 

[MikeJanis]

1. To be honest players speak of it, however I personally do not encourage it for several reasons. This is not a week long or even a month long "debate." The players need time to digest, they have people in the industry trying to influence them in many ways. The bottom line is the players will do what is best for them, UPA or not. The issue for the players is not their anger or resolve on the matter, it's simply their options. This all happend so fast and we were competely blind sided it's like coming out of a car crash and then starting an investigation as to what happened.

2. The players know and believe that they need a union. At the end of the day it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that manufacturers care about sales, not tournament rules, guidelines, sanctioning issues, points distribution, min addeds, and the myriad of other issues that greatly effect a players life.

Keep'm coming...

Frank, I know your are having fun here on AZ. Everyone does their 1st time but I have to advise you that your words / statement will be scrutenized by many and yes, even possibly twisted. Be prepared.

Earlier I posted that I called you out. I accepted your answers but honestly they were convenient answers and do not come across as what the truth is. To be straight with you, I am not calling you a liar. But I want to point out that that the answers you gave regarding the phantom PR that never exhisted about the UPA not requiring monies up front seem to be answers of convenience and provide no facts.

As an example, regarding the UPA having promoters post prize monies up front with the UPA. You stated: in post #14

What happend was the players voted against this and thus do not require the UPA to deal with this issue. Perhaps this will change after 3 instances. Please note Mr. Janis that this issue is indeed our current agenda, however it is not yet our mandate.

Then in post #21 you stated that:

Yes, it was our mandate and a requirement.

Then in post #29 after I provided you with links and dates to UPA press releases dating back to May of 2003 which is as far back as the AZ database goes you stated:

1
3. I believe the mandate changed in late 2002 or early 2003.

Frank, as you can see this looks like you gave answers of convenience and not hard facts. As "The Mens Governing Body of Pool" You / the UPA is held to much higher standards.

The big problem here from my point of view is that I believe most of the players who are members of the UPA think that UPA Sanctioning means Guaranteed Money and now they know it's not true and the same with everyone else that believed this.

Frank, please give me and the AZ community something so we can trust that your statements are true and accurate.

In the meantime I will take you at your word to be the truth but we need some actual facts. Board meeting minutes, players who voted, the vote count, the actual date of the change, a dated letter to the promoters stating this change. Anything with some meat on it.

Mj

 

[UPA President]

I find the above bolded statement to be very incorrect. For this to be a "tour", the UPA would have to hold multiple tournaments a year that are initiated and promoted by the UPA. Instead, the UPA only seems to come along to certain events, that would take place anyways, and add their sanctioning. In my opinion, this does not encapsulate a "pro tour". The UPA is merely riding the coat tails of other successful events that would go off with or without the UPA's blessing (DCC, U.S. Open, etc...). However, this is just my viewpoint.

To say the UPA is a player's tour is a gross misrepresentation.

Ray

Hello Ray,

I can certainly understand your view. However there is a much bigger picture in mind when we speak of things this way. What you say is indeed true in regards to events taking place despite the UPA. In example you have 3 stops with 3 different promoters, two of whom would never even have a cup of coffee together (if you know what I mean). At the end of the day these are three independant events in every way. However the UPA comes along and sanctions all three thus now making each a part of the official U.S. tour. Our expertise is in working with each promoter so that in the long term we can benefit them as they benefit us. This can happen in many ways but more imporantly puts the players association in a position to speak with investment groups about expansion. As far as actual "ownership" the players own this thing called the UPA. The UPA is currently seeking (has been for some time) options and legal ways of UPA ownership. You see, the UPA alone has the right on U.S. soil to create or sanction an event thus making it a part of the U.S. tour. This by the way is why our sanctioning is so important to our players.

Also this allows us to consider each and every promoter a business partner in many ways. Our goal is to have promoters truly see the value of sanctioning with the UPA. Also, even upon expansion the UPA would not cut out promoters, after all they invested from the beginning. Also note that this allows all promoters to be part of the U.S. tour. This is our way of including an entire industry.

I hope this helps. From these points many good things begin to happen for U.S. pool.

 

[UPA President]

Frank, I know your are having fun here on AZ. Everyone does their 1st time but I have to advise you that your words / statement will be scrutenized by many and yes, even possibly twisted. Be prepared.

Earlier I posted that I called you out. I accepted your answers but honestly they were convenient answers and do not come across as what the truth is. To be straight with you, I am not calling you a liar. But I want to point out that that the answers you gave regarding the phantom PR that never exhisted about the UPA not requiring monies up front seem to be answers of convenience and provide no facts.

As an example, regarding the UPA having promoters post prize monies up front with the UPA. You stated: in post #14


Then in post #21 you stated that:


Then in post #29 after I provided you with links and dates to UPA press releases dating back to May of 2003 which is as far back as the AZ database goes you stated:

Frank, as you can see this looks like you gave answers of convenience and not hard facts. As "The Mens Governing Body of Pool" You / the UPA is held to much higher standards.

The big problem here from my point of view is that I believe most of the players who are members of the UPA think that UPA Sanctioning means Guaranteed Money and now they know it's not true and the same with everyone else that believed this.

Frank, please give me and the AZ community something so we can trust that your statements are true and accurate.

In the meantime I will take you at your word to be the truth but we need some actual facts. Board meeting minutes, players who voted, the vote count, the date of the change. Anything with some meat on it.

Mj

Thanks Mike for the words of wisdom. I assure you it's simply a matter of getting used to a forum. If you have ask me a straight forward question I have no problem whatsoever giving you a staight forward answer. My answers have nothing to do with conveniance.

If I seemed to have contridicted myself on a matter please point this out to me so I can correct myself. I hope that I am afforded a little grace in that I would not change our position in the same thread.

Charlie started the mandate (prize money escrow), it had practical and logistical issues and thus was changed from "mandate" to "desire." This took place very early in the UPA's existance.

Again please aid me in pointing out seeming contradiction. Thank you.

 

[UPA President]

Frank, I know your are having fun here on AZ. Everyone does their 1st time but I have to advise you that your words / statement will be scrutenized by many and yes, even possibly twisted. Be prepared.

Earlier I posted that I called you out. I accepted your answers but honestly they were convenient answers and do not come across as what the truth is. To be straight with you, I am not calling you a liar. But I want to point out that that the answers you gave regarding the phantom PR that never exhisted about the UPA not requiring monies up front seem to be answers of convenience and provide no facts.

As an example, regarding the UPA having promoters post prize monies up front with the UPA. You stated: in post #14


Then in post #21 you stated that:


Then in post #29 after I provided you with links and dates to UPA press releases dating back to May of 2003 which is as far back as the AZ database goes you stated:

Frank, as you can see this looks like you gave answers of convenience and not hard facts. As "The Mens Governing Body of Pool" You / the UPA is held to much higher standards.

The big problem here from my point of view is that I believe most of the players who are members of the UPA think that UPA Sanctioning means Guaranteed Money and now they know it's not true and the same with everyone else that believed this.

Frank, please give me and the AZ community something so we can trust that your statements are true and accurate.

In the meantime I will take you at your word to be the truth but we need some actual facts. Board meeting minutes, players who voted, the vote count, the actual date of the change, a dated letter to the promoters stating this change. Anything with some meat on it.

Mj

1. Again when it came to the "phantom" PR you read my statement one way and I meant it another. When you addressed it I thought you were telling me that there WAS in fact a PR on the matter. In this case I would have stood corrected. Surely I am afforded some forum miscommunication.

2. I know of NO player on our tour that believes we deal with money in escrow as a sanction requirement.

3. You want my to show that my statments are true concerning what Mr. Janis? Is it forum policy that I am a liar until proven truthful?

Please help clarify your position.

 

[MikeJanis]

Thanks Mike for the words of wisdom. I assure you it's simply a matter of getting used to a forum. If you have ask me a straight forward question I have no problem whatsoever giving you a staight forward answer. My answers have nothing to do with conveniance.

If I seemed to have contradicted myself on a matter please point this out to me so I can correct myself. I hope that I am afforded a little grace in that I would not change our position in the same thread.

Charlie started the mandate (prize money escrow), it have practical and logistical issues and thus was changed from "mandate" to "desire." This took place very early in the UPA's existence.

Again please aid me in pointing out seeming contradiction. Thank you.

Frank, in no way am I saying there was a contradiction to your statements. My post on this speaks for itself. What I am saying is that your answers appeared to be answers of convenience. Especially with the dating of the mandate and the lack of proof.

Again, I am not saying you lied or contradicted yourself but to many it will appear that your answers were just out of convenience.

As fair warning I think you should find something to the effect of the change in mandate and provide it or the AZ wolves are possibly going to eat you alive on this one.

I have been through similar situations many times on the forums with the wolves and the best advice I can give you is to be prepared with facts and back them up with undeniable proof.

Frank, whatever happens do not shy away from AZ. Stay here and contribute. I know you have a way with words and will come across as very astute but at the same time some will take those words (either of of jelousy, fear or misunderstanding) and twist them and torture you with your own words.

AZ can be a brutal place and right now you have put yourself in a position to take a beating.

Mj