Video Update

FranCrimi said:
....Then, the OP doesn't understand the system because he claims he's standing the way he is due to the CTE PRO ONE offset.
Click to expand...

CTE PRO ONE is a visual system. Once visuals are acquired the eyes will always sweep left or right to a shot line. There is no set physical stance or feet placement that results from sweeping into shots. The rectangular nature of a table will not allow for that to happen. (I am not saying that fundamentally sound principles can not emerge as a result of physically following the eyes to final aim.)

The OP will be fine in time as he currently is in a stage of becoming aware of how his body/stance follows his eyes. It is normal to go through spells with CTE and think "ok" if my right is here then that is key to the system. In time the OP will have a keen visual awareness of the few CB OB relationships that connect to pockets and precisely how his body follows to any shot line.

CTE PRO ONE is not target shooting, far from it.

Stan Shuffett
 
stan shuffett said:
CTE PRO ONE is a visual system. Once visuals are acquired the eyes will always sweep left or right to a shot line. There is no set physical stance or feet placement that results from sweeping into shots. The rectangular nature of a table will not allow for that to happen. (I am not saying that fundamentally sound principles can not emerge as a result of physically following the eyes to final aim.)

The OP will be fine in time as he currently is in a stage of becoming aware of how his body/stance follows his eyes. It is normal to go through spells with CTE and think "ok" if my right is here then that is key to the system. In time the OP will have a keen visual awareness of the few CB OB relationships that connect to pockets and precisely how his body follows to any shot line.

CTE PRO ONE is not target shooting, far from it.

Stan Shuffett
Click to expand...

OK thanks for the description, Stan. I admit I don't know that system so I am just a beginner at grasping the concept.

From my experience, we have many choices in how to position our bodies in order to accommodate our particular line of sight --- and there are optimum positions and not-so-optimum positions for that same line of sight. I wouldn't be comfortable in saying that a player will eventually fall into the right stance if their eyes are positioned correctly. I think there's more to it that involves an understanding of balance and anatomy.
 
FranCrimi said:
OK thanks for the description, Stan. I admit I don't know that system so I am just a beginner at grasping the concept.

From my experience, we have many choices in how to position our bodies in order to accommodate our particular line of sight --- and there are optimum positions and not-so-optimum positions for that same line of sight. I wouldn't be comfortable in saying that a player will eventually fall into the right stance if their eyes are positioned correctly. I think there's more to it that involves an understanding of balance and anatomy.
Click to expand...

Fran, Great thoughts as usual!

Obviously pool is a visual/physical game. In CTE PRO ONE one's visual intelligence is essentially programmed with a set of objective visuals that serve as an important initial step in connecting with the pockets. The visual offset is so slight that shot lines are easily accessed, particularly, because all visual offsets are the same. Many players think they're actually on shot lines during their ball addresses. Phil Burford is one pro that swept left and right into his shots and was totally unaware of those movements, visually and physically. Phil will share with anyone how his newly found awarenesses have bumped up his game....

Just as we have a visual intelligence the same can be said of our body as it has an intelligence as well.

Just as the eyes are doing the same thing for each shot the same can be said of the body. The body simply moves slightly right or left as the eyes sweep to a shot line.

With visual/motor coordination that can repeat the same thing a few hundred times per day up to a few thousand times per week, it's easy to understand how the eyes/body take over with very little conscious direction of any kind.

Stan Shuffett
 
stan shuffett said:
Fran, Great thoughts as usual!

Obviously pool is a visual/physical game. In CTE PRO ONE one's visual intelligence is essentially programmed with a set of objective visuals that serve as an important initial step in connecting with the pockets. The visual offset is so slight that shot lines are easily accessed, particularly, because all visual offsets are the same. Many players think they're actually on shot lines during their ball addresses. Phil Burford is one pro that swept left and right into his shots and was totally unaware of those movements, visually and physically. Phil will share with anyone how his newly found awarenesses have bumped up his game....

Just as we have a visual intelligence the same can be said of our body as it has an intelligence as well.

Just as the eyes are doing the same thing for each shot the same can be said of the body. The body simply moves slightly right or left as the eyes sweep to a shot line.

With visual/motor coordination that can repeat the same thing a few hundred times per day up to a few thousand times per week, it's easy to understand how the eyes/body take over with very little conscious direction of any kind.

Stan Shuffett
Click to expand...

Stan:

Good post (and good answer, btw, to my previous post). What Fran and I are both driving at, is NOT to make the mistake that just because you position your eyes (and thus your head) to get the correct "visual," that your body "will automatically follow." That's simply not true. Yes, your eyes/head will "get you in the ballpark," but solid fundamentals are just that -- they are built, not "pulled through" as a result of something else happening.

Yes, we know that CTE/Pro-1 is a visual system, and is mathematically linked to the geometry and dimensions of the table. We get all that. The issue is making this the "top of the pyramid" (the apex), while forgetting that the majority of the pyramid's construction is UNDER that apex and supports it. All too often this is glossed-over as being "second fiddle."

I would say (sticking my neck out, for Fran to chop off if I'm wrong) that Fran and I both say this relationship should be switched -- proper fundamentals are "first fiddle," and the visuals/aiming "second fiddle." One leads to the other, not vice-versa. While you can "see" how to pocket a ball (using whatever aiming system du jour), it is of limited use if you can't deliver the cue ball to that exact location, within a couple millimeters. But if we reverse that relationship to the proper order -- good fundamentals first, visualization/aiming second, that second one gets STRENGTHENED because our mind can see that we're physically delivering the ball where we intend -- via our good fundamentals -- and our subconscious / muscle memory storehouses have useful data to process. E.g.: "ah, that cue ball hit where I delivered it, but my aim was off -- need to correct for next time." Versus, "my aim was on -- I trust my 'system' -- but why did I not pocket that ball?" lingering question thing.

I hope that helps explain it. And yes -- absolutely -- I would welcome the opportunity to spend some time on the table with you explaining the system, pairing it with solid fundamentals.

-Sean
 
sfleinen said:
Stan:

Good post (and good answer, btw, to my previous post). What Fran and I are both driving at, is NOT to make the mistake that just because you position your eyes (and thus your head) to get the correct "visual," that your body "will automatically follow." That's simply not true. Yes, your eyes/head will "get you in the ballpark," but solid fundamentals are just that -- they are built, not "pulled through" as a result of something else happening.

Yes, we know that CTE/Pro-1 is a visual system, and is mathematically linked to the geometry and dimensions of the table. We get all that. The issue is making this the "top of the pyramid" (the apex), while forgetting that the majority of the pyramid's construction is UNDER that apex and supports it. All too often this is glossed-over as being "second fiddle."

I would say (sticking my neck out, for Fran to chop off if I'm wrong) that Fran and I both say this relationship should be switched -- proper fundamentals are "first fiddle," and the visuals/aiming "second fiddle." One leads to the other, not vice-versa. While you can "see" how to pocket a ball (using whatever aiming system du jour), it is of limited use if you can't deliver the cue ball to that exact location, within a couple millimeters. But if we reverse that relationship to the proper order -- good fundamentals first, visualization/aiming second, that second one gets STRENGTHENED because our mind can see that we're physically delivering the ball where we intend -- via our good fundamentals -- and our subconscious / muscle memory storehouses have useful data to process. E.g.: "ah, that cue ball hit where I delivered it, but my aim was off -- need to correct for next time." Versus, "my aim was on -- I trust my 'system' -- but why did I not pocket that ball?" lingering question thing.

I hope that helps explain it. And yes -- absolutely -- I would welcome the opportunity to spend some time on the table with you explaining the system, pairing it with solid fundamentals.

-Sean[/

The nature of CTE is that the eyes see the shot line first and then the body aligns to the visual with the best fundamentals that one can muster up, hopefully.

It's imperative in CTE that the eyes lead and that is precisely why the cue almost always comes in from the side. Pro players that bring their cue in from the side are almost always sweeping left or right into their aim line.

IF and I say IF I were going to match up at random, I'd ten to one rather play someone that attempts to bring their cue straight down on the shot line vs. the player that brings his cue in from the side.

Stan Shuffett
Click to expand...
 
FranCrimi said:
I don't know the Pro One system but I couldn't imagine that it would include crowding your shooting arm with your torso over the line of the shot as CJ has pointed out that you are doing.

No matter how you slice it, your right arm will always be on the right side of your body. Forcing it under your torso will cause other potential issues, like turning your wrist under your cue and crooking your arm under your torso.

You are almost there with your stance but I think you need to stand just a little more to the left so your arm hangs straight down over the line of the shot. Right now, your right foot is to the right of the line of the shot and so is your right arm.

So many people, including instructors, have declared in this forum that it doesn't matter what you do with your feet as long as you can deliver the cue in a straight line. Yours is a classic example of how that statement is so untrue. You may be delivering the cue in a straight line but you are fighting your body's anatomy. So you have to work harder to keep your arm in line.

Depending on what you have to do to keep your arm straight, you could tire quicker or even cause some muscle strain over time.

Your rhythm around the table and stroke rhythm look very good. I think you are doing very well in that regard.
Click to expand...

I thought about this quite a bit at work today. I won't be able to get to the pool hall to test it out until this weekend. I did just look at myself in the mirror at home though and at least tried to get a feel for it.

I did seem to notice I had more range of motion in my shooting arm. Big difference between doing it with a table and without though, so I look forward to actually trying it this weekend.
 
BeiberLvr said:
I thought about this quite a bit at work today. I won't be able to get to the pool hall to test it out until this weekend. I did just look at myself in the mirror at home though and at least tried to get a feel for it.

I did seem to notice I had more range of motion in my shooting arm. Big difference between doing it with a table and without though, so I look forward to actually trying it this weekend.
Click to expand...

Good for you.

You may not be stuck on the ......

Best Wishes,
Rick
 
stan shuffett said:
sfleinen said:
Stan:

Good post (and good answer, btw, to my previous post). What Fran and I are both driving at, is NOT to make the mistake that just because you position your eyes (and thus your head) to get the correct "visual," that your body "will automatically follow." That's simply not true. Yes, your eyes/head will "get you in the ballpark," but solid fundamentals are just that -- they are built, not "pulled through" as a result of something else happening.

Yes, we know that CTE/Pro-1 is a visual system, and is mathematically linked to the geometry and dimensions of the table. We get all that. The issue is making this the "top of the pyramid" (the apex), while forgetting that the majority of the pyramid's construction is UNDER that apex and supports it. All too often this is glossed-over as being "second fiddl



I would say (sticking my neck out, for Fran to chop off if I'm wrong) that Fran and I both say this relationship should be switched -- proper fundamentals are "first fiddle," and the visuals/aiming "second fiddle." One leads to the other, not vice-versa. While you can "see" how to pocket a ball (using whatever aiming system du jour), it is of limited use if you can't deliver the cue ball to that exact location, within a couple millimeters. But if we reverse that relationship to the proper order -- good fundamentals first, visualization/aiming second, that second one gets STRENGTHENED because our mind can see that we're physically delivering the ball where we intend -- via our good fundamentals -- and our subconscious / muscle memory storehouses have useful data to process. E.g.: "ah, that cue ball hit where I delivered it, but my aim was off -- need to correct for next time." Versus, "my aim was on -- I trust my 'system' -- but why did I not pocket that ball?" lingering question thing.

I hope that helps explain it. And yes -- absolutely -- I would welcome the opportunity to spend some time on the table with you explaining the system, pairing it with solid fundamentals.

-Sean[/

The nature of CTE is that the eyes see the shot line first and then the body aligns to the visual with the best fundamentals that one can muster up, hopefully.

It's imperative in CTE that the eyes lead and that is precisely why the cue almost always comes in from the side. Pro players that bring their cue in from the side are almost always sweeping left or right into their aim line.

IF and I say IF I were going to match up at random, I'd ten to one rather play someone that attempts to bring their cue straight down on the shot line vs. the player that brings his cue in from the side.

Stan Shuffett
Click to expand...

This probably isn't the thread for it, but since it involves the system used by the OP and the conversation has started, I see both pros and cons in both types of approaches --- stepping in directly from behind vs. approaching from the side.

With stepping in from directly behind, there is a brief moment where the head must leave the sight position as the player is stepping into the shot. With this method, the emphasis is on the stance and body position with trust in the initial sighting (at least the way I teach it and play myself). The eyes are still seeing the line of the shot but not from the shooting perspective until the head is positioned over the cue.

With the approach from the side, the eyes remain over the line of the shot throughout out the entire approach, with less emphasis on the nuances of the stance.

I think there are up down sides of both systems. As we saw with the OP here, while his stick was moving along a straight line, he hadn't yet found an optimal stance. But in the meantime, he was drilling a new habit into his routine. Would he have eventually found the optimal stance without any guidance in feet position? I'm not so sure about that. On the other hand, his visuals were probably great.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
FranCrimi said:
stan shuffett said:
This probably isn't the thread for it, but since it involves the system used by the OP and the conversation has started, I see both pros and cons in both types of approaches --- stepping in directly from behind vs. approaching from the side.

With stepping in from directly behind, there is a brief moment where the head must leave the sight position as the player is stepping into the shot. With this method, the emphasis is on the stance and body position with trust in the initial sighting (at least the way I teach it and play myself). The eyes are still seeing the line of the shot but not from the shooting perspective until the head is positioned over the cue.

With the approach from the side, the eyes remain over the line of the shot throughout out the entire approach, with less emphasis on the nuances of the stance.

I think there are up down sides of both systems. As we saw with the OP here, while his stick was moving along a straight line, he hadn't yet found an optimal stance. But in the meantime, he was drilling a new habit into his routine. Would he have eventually found the optimal stance without any guidance in feet position? I'm not so sure about that. On the other hand, his visuals were probably great.
Click to expand...

Correct. My goal today if I'm able to practice is to work on some easy shots using Pro One. But I'm also going to pay attention to my feet, and the orientation of my shooting arm .
Click to expand...
 
Update http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoT6ZxDih68

This is my slightly adjusted stance. I tried not to overcrowd the shot line. Not sure if I'm fully there yet, but it does feel a lot different, and in a good way.

The biggest benefit is being able to accurately hit center ball. I mentioned in another thread that my perceived center was actually 1/2 tip to the right. I then started compensating by hitting a hair to the left of my perceived center. This worked well, but it got kind of annoying. By tweaking my stance and head position, I can now hit center and it actually looks like center to me.

Edit: Lower your volume. The TVs were on pretty loud in there today.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Update http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoT6ZxDih68

This is my slightly adjusted stance. I tried not to overcrowd the shot line. Not sure if I'm fully there yet, but it does feel a lot different, and in a good way.

The biggest benefit is being able to accurately hit center ball. I mentioned in another thread that my perceived center was actually 1/2 tip to the right. I then started compensating by hitting a hair to the left of my perceived center. This worked well, but it got kind of annoying. By tweaking my stance and head position, I can now hit center and it actually looks like center to me.

Edit: Lower your volume. The TVs were on pretty loud in there today.
Click to expand...

You're looking much improved. Your arm is hanging straight down now. Did you mention what your dominant eye is? Is it your left eye?
 
BeiberLvr said:
Thanks Fran, and yes it is my left eye.
Click to expand...

OK, then I think you found your stance. Congratulations. I like the fact that your arm is now unrestricted by your torso and can move freely through the stroke.

There's always room for slight tweaking if you need it, so the next step is to determine how it holds up over long sessions and in competition.

Take note if you feel more tired than before or if any body parts feel particularly achy after a workout. If you do feel something different, some of it could be due to getting your body used to a different position at the table. That part is OK. Just try to be aware of anything that feels like a strain or unusual pressure over time.

Your new stance is similar to Mike Sigel and Robin Dodson when in their primes. You're in good company.
 
FranCrimi said:
OK, then I think you found your stance. Congratulations. I like the fact that your arm is now unrestricted by your torso and can move freely through the stroke.

There's always room for slight tweaking if you need it, so the next step is to determine how it holds up over long sessions and in competition.

Take note if you feel more tired than before or if any body parts feel particularly achy after a workout. If you do feel something different, some of it could be due to getting your body used to a different position at the table. That part is OK. Just try to be aware of anything that feels like a strain or unusual pressure over time.

Your new stance is similar to Mike Sigel and Robin Dodson when in their primes. You're in good company.
Click to expand...

Thanks Fran. Yesterday's session [6 hours] was the longest I've played with the new stance. Most of it was practice, but a couple hours against my sparring partner.

I felt pretty comfortable throughout the duration of the session.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top