What can cause more delayed english in a cue?

X Breaker

X Breaker

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would like to ask you why is it that some cues can produce more "delay' action than others with a power english shot?

What are the variables to look for?

By "delay" I am talking about the curve the cue ball makes after it contacts the object ball.

e.g. with power bottom, the cue ball will curve in a parabolic path. Some cues can produce a more drastic parabolic path, i.e. more delay.

e.g. with power top spin, the cue ball will hit the cushion, then bounce and then go forward to the cushion again. Some cues will cause the cue ball to curve sooner than other cues. Some cues will cause the cue ball to "delay" the curve so you can see a bigger curve.

e.g. In 14.1, some player can play a break out shot with power english and the cue ball will run into the pack, and then run through the pack. Sometimes, the cue ball will have so much power that it will hit a lot of balls, and still run through. This is a bit different from the "delay" I mentioned earlier, but I think a cue which can do this will share the same properties as a cue with a big "delay".

I know some of you will try to tell me it is all in the stroke and Reyes can shot anything with a broomstick, but I do not agree that he can make the same power english shots he makes with his Judd if he had a broomstick. With a different cue, the cue ball reaction will not be the same, the cue ball will curve differently, and will hit the rail at a different spot. He will have to hit the cue ball differently to achieve the same result.

What I want to know is what in a cue makes a cue perform differently in regard to cue ball path with power english shot?

Is it the taper? If so, what kind of taper will cause more delay? Why?

Is it the joint? Which kind will cause more delay? Why?

Is it the balance? What is the best balance point for more delay, why?

Is it the ferrule material? Which ferrule will cause more delay? Why?

...

Thanks in advanced.

Richard
 
nipponbilliards said:
I would like to ask you why is it that some cues can produce more "delay' action than others with a power english shot?

What are the variables to look for?

By "delay" I am talking about the curve the cue ball makes after it contacts the object ball.

e.g. with power bottom, the cue ball will curve in a parabolic path. Some cues can produce a more drastic parabolic path, i.e. more delay.

e.g. with power top spin, the cue ball will hit the cushion, then bounce and then go forward to the cushion again. Some cues will cause the cue ball to curve sooner than other cues. Some cues will cause the cue ball to "delay" the curve so you can see a bigger curve.

e.g. In 14.1, some player can play a break out shot with power english and the cue ball will run into the pack, and then run through the pack. Sometimes, the cue ball will have so much power that it will hit a lot of balls, and still run through. This is a bit different from the "delay" I mentioned earlier, but I think a cue which can do this will share the same properties as a cue with a big "delay".

I know some of you will try to tell me it is all in the stroke and Reyes can shot anything with a broomstick, but I do not agree that he can make the same power english shots he makes with his Judd if he had a broomstick. With a different cue, the cue ball reaction will not be the same, the cue ball will curve differently, and will hit the rail at a different spot. He will have to hit the cue ball differently to achieve the same result.

What I want to know is what in a cue makes a cue perform differently in regard to cue ball path with power english shot?

Is it the taper? If so, what kind of taper will cause more delay? Why?

Is it the joint? Which kind will cause more delay? Why?

Is it the balance? What is the best balance point for more delay, why?

Is it the ferrule material? Which ferrule will cause more delay? Why?
Click to expand...
What you are asking relates to the cue balls forward velocity "V" and the amount of back spin "S". When you get a big parabola it is because the cue ball wants to follow the tangent. The greater V is, the longer it will be able to follow it. I think that tip placement and cue weight are the biggest factors.

A phenonmonen that I find harder to understand is, a perfectly straight shot, where the cue ball does a little burn-out before it comes straight back. I think the reason for this one is cue ball mass being greater than object ball mass. By the way, ball masses could have an effect on the above parabola scenario also.

Another thing to consider is, how well your tip is "gripping" the cue ball and tip placement. The lower the tip placement, the higher the S:V ratio, which would result in less parabola effect. Also jacking up the cue, results in some of the stroke energy going into the slate, which reduces "V", thereby increasing the S:V ratio.

Tracy
 
RSB-Refugee said:
A phenonmonen that I find harder to understand is, a perfectly straight shot, where the cue ball does a little burn-out before it comes straight back. I think the reason for this one is cue ball mass being greater than object ball mass. By the way, ball masses could have an effect on the above parabola scenario also.
Tracy
Click to expand...

What I think is funny is on a bar table with an oversized or heavy cueball with a straight-in draw shot, the cueball moves forward past the point of contact before it comes back...lol. On a hard shot this could be as much as an inch or more! The ball will always stop at the point of impact and after that what happens all depends on the masses of the balls, amount of spin and friction of the cloth.
 
nipponbilliards said:
What I want to know is what in a cue makes a cue perform differently in regard to cue ball path with power english shot?

#1-Is it the taper? If so, what kind of taper will cause more delay? Why?

#2-Is it the joint? Which kind will cause more delay? Why?

#3-Is it the balance? What is the best balance point for more delay, why?

#4-Is it the ferrule material? Which ferrule will cause more delay? Why?
Click to expand...
The speed the ball is hit at causes the cue ball to go to one side or the other before the english takes. Once the english "takes" or starts grabbing the cloth, that is what gives the curve or delay you are talking about.
#1- A very limber shaft taper will produce more spin because of the bending of the shaft and the sharp release it gives when it springs back straight. It increases top, bottom or side spin. It will also cause you to miss more power shots, so it is a trade off.
#2- Soft plastics like ABS or PVC, flat faced joints give more spin. The compression gives a extra little snap to the hit and increases the spin.
#3- This makes less difference in my opinion.
#4- The softer plastic ferrules produce more spin for the same reason the soft plastic joints do. But since the ferrule is so close to the cue ball it is the greatest factor of the four.
I hope this helps.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
2 other factors to consider if you are referring to top spin and back spin.
Cue ball weight- If whitey is lighter than the ball it is contacting, it will "pause" before the spin takes effect.
Cue ball jump- On draw shots, some people will jack up a little without thinking and the cueball will skim the cloth and can contact the object ball while still airborn (even slightly). This will give the appearance of a delay also.
Chuck
 
Thank you so much everyone.:)

What about a cue which helps the cue ball to run into the pack and break out the balls in 14.1? Any special things to look for.

In Taiwan, they always tell me SouthWest has the most "powerful" taper for this kind of shot...

Richard
 
nipponbilliards said:
Thank you so much everyone.:)

What about a cue which helps the cue ball to run into the pack and break out the balls in 14.1? Any special things to look for.

In Taiwan, they always tell me SouthWest has the most "powerful" taper for this kind of shot...

Richard
Click to expand...
I have heard that when Mosconi broke up a 14.1 rack, the cue ball did not seem to hit it very hard, but it would plow right on through. It sounds to me that he had a lot of spin and little velocity.

I just thought of another variable, squirt. A high squirt cue and a low squirt cue, actually cut the exact same shot differently.

Tracy
 
Nothing special to look for, the cue design/construction does not have anything to do with the cue balls ability to break up a cluster. The type of balls (phenolic, ivory, mud balls etc) all break up differently, the only points to think about are these..
1. Cue ball speed
2. What angle the cue ball goes into the pile
3. What ball it hits, and how full is the hit (relates back to the angle)

If you send the cueball into the edge of a ball thats not frozen to anything else, and the angle the object ball takes does not hit anything else solid..... the balls will not open well.
However, if you send the cueball squarely into a ball that is in a frozen cluster, the energy will be dispensed into several balls, and they will open up.
Same thing as in breaking a rack of 9 ball 8 ball etc.
Chuck
 
I am thinking along the line of trying out different cues on the same table, with the same cloth, with the same set of balls. Thank you for pointing out that balls, and cloth make a difference, but if these factors are kept constant, then what do we look for in a cue?

I want to stress that I am not asking how to break out the rack effectively, but provided I hit the rack the same way, at the same spot on the pack, with two different cues, why is it that one cue would offer me more "power" is what I was enquiring.

I like the mention of squirt because I am not 100% sure but I think a high squirt cue is better with this shot, in the sense that it can cause the cue ball to go into the pack, and bounce a few times. I do not have any data to support it, it is just speaking from experience. Like I find that a harder ferrule (ivory) is more favorable for me.

I have watched this player in Taiwan, he was trying out my cues, and as he was comparing the cues, he tried the same shot, which was to have about a three quarter ball on the last ball close to the pack, and try to break out the pack from there. He tried the same shot with different cues, and there were noticable difference. In one attempt with a Southwest, his cue ball went into the pack, went back and forth and up and down(I am serious) about three to four times inside the pack, and then came out of the pack. It was amazing!

He told me some cues are more "powerful" than other cues. But he could not articulate the reason why. He likes Southwest, ebony forearm, with yellow micarta ferrule.

I do not understand why yellow micarta is better.

Thank you.

Richard
 
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Well, on that note... one of the main reasons a cue 'feels' good is the ability to get feedback through the cue.
We judge feel and hit by vibrations. The stiffer a cue is (constructed solid, a short stiff taper, a hard ferrule, and tip) the less vibration you feel. That means you feel the tip hitting the ball more, also means less energy is wasted on vibrating the cue therefore putting it into the cueball.
Low squirt cues/shafts in my opinion are too whippy and vibrate more than a well contructed, stiff hitting cue.
So to vaguely answer your question, a solidly built cue with a good joint (preferably wood to wood), stiff shaft etc etc will be able to transmit more energy into the cueball than a cue that has a light whippy shaft and soft ferrule..... Sorry Bob Meucci and mythdestroyer...... :eek:
Think of a dead blow hammer (shot loaded) , more energy is transmitted because there is less vibration than say a steel hammer.
Chuck
 
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