What constitutes being rated an A LEVEL player

[recoveryjones]

I just read over the posts regarding bridge lengths and within it player rankings. I see different posters have rated themselves c+ B's, B+'s etc.etc.

In Vancouver Canada (for 9 ball) we rate our players on a scale as follows.
Pro plus (horsfall, Potier, Torangeau), Pro(mike vidas), A+, A, B+ B, C+, C and I've never heard of a D.

For every ranking you are rated ahead of someone you have to give a handicap.
A pro plus will spot a pro the last two, an A+ the wild 8, an A the wild 8 and the last two, A B+ the 7,8 and 9 and B the 7,8,9 and the last two etc.etc.

I think they hand out high ratings here in Vancouver much, much too easy. John Horsfall has went head to head with the best in the world and won two major tournaments and Paul Potier in his prime can also compete at a very high level.

It's the A's and the A+ rankings that I feel are earned much too easily.What should an A level player be able to do. Can he be even with a pro with a spot of the wild 8 which he is given.I believe if a TRUE A level player was given such a spot that while the pro's going to come out on top the majority of times, that he SHOULD be able to make him work for it.

We have A level players here who can play 12 racks and not break and run one of them and other supposed A level players who's major racks in a row break and runs are only two.What does an A have to be able to do in your area to be considered A level?

I know some local Tiawanese and Philipino players who are A level players here and say they would only be rated C+ and B in their countries.I also know that rankings differ city to city and sometimes pool hall to pool hall within that city.

When I went to school getting an A grade meant that I had to do my various subjects at least 80% right.There's a lot of players ranked A level here that don't make 80% of their kicks, banks, saftiey attempts and run outs when they should.

In summary , what constitutes A level in your area? RJ

 

[Teacherman]

...When I went to school getting an A grade meant that I had to do my various subjects at least 80% right...

The answer to your lack of understanding is somewhere in this quote.

 

[AuntyDan]

One of the major problems is that 9 Ball is the prevelant tournament game, and it is hard to create a consistent ranking system because the game itself is not a consistent test of skill, at least not in the short term.

Efren Reyes put it very well in the AZBilliards interview: "Anyone can win in 9 ball especially when you get hot on the breaks; A 100th ranked player can beat a top 10 player".

You may want to read Phil Cappelle's excellent "Play Your Best 9 Ball", he has a detailed section on determining your level of play as an A, B or C. The only problem is that it does not go down low enough for everyone, even his C player rating does not always encompass my lack of ability! I guess he is assuming most people buying his book are not total beginners.

 

[The Kiss]

I always figure it is the amount of balls run on a consistant basis, plus safety play plus kick knowledge plus overall knowledge of banks, caroms, kisses ect..

For 9 ball
So if you factor in 1 to 3 balls consistant run is a D player...3 to 5 balls run is a C player...5 to 7 is a B player and 7 to 9 is an A player and so on...

Then factor in Safeties and Kicks and other table knowledge...So then if you find a guy who plays a ball better or less he is either plus or minus from where you rate..Does he play play tight??? Kick like a champ??? How do you match up to that..

 

[AuntyDan]

I always figure it is the amount of balls run on a consistant basis, plus safety play plus kick knowledge plus overall knowledge of banks, caroms, kisses ect..

For 9 ball
So if you factor in 1 to 3 balls consistant run is a D player...3 to 5 balls run is a C player...5 to 7 is a B player and 7 to 9 is an A player and so on...

Yes, but in 9 ball running the 1-3 is different from the 4-6 and different again from the 7-9 (Assuming nothing goes in on the break). Therefore just the quantity of balls run on average is not enough on it's own to rate a 9 ball player.

 

[The Kiss]

Yes, but in 9 ball running the 1-3 is different from the 4-6 and different again from the 7-9 (Assuming nothing goes in on the break). Therefore just the quantity of balls run on average is not enough on it's own to rate a 9 ball player.

Its not exact no ...but its as close as your going to find....You have your average run which I outlined....then add in safetys...hits kicks diamond system ect ect...The A player will run an average high # of balls, play great safes, kick well and play position.. B is less in all catergories..C is even less..Not to say you might not play A type safes but still have a C game

A lessor player can play up his game to compete any given day, but the better player will be consistantly stronger on any given day...

Its no difference from an average in bowling or baseball...You don't hit .350 all the time but out of 10 tries you should get 3.5 hits...But who is better the perrinial .350 hitter or the guy who hits .350 once and then goes back to .275

 

[bruin70]

at the very least, he has to run out an open table just about everytime.

excellent pocketing skills, although he may have a problem with the toughies. relies on shooting skills more than positioning skills.

he ISN'T necessarily creative in odd situations. i think creativity is a high level talent.

and he can't do better than getting the 5 from a top 10-15 pro.

 

[sixpack]

I just read over the posts regarding bridge lengths and within it player rankings. I see different posters have rated themselves c+ B's, B+'s etc.etc.

-- Interesting stuff deleted --

In summary , what constitutes A level in your area? RJ

Let me clear this up once and for all. The only thing that determines a players ability is their ability index. The ability index is determined by the number of times they visit their HOME pool hall per week and the amount of money they spend each time. It is generally an inverse proportion. The ability index can be described mathematically as follows:

Ability =
___________________1__________________ * 100
(Frequency of visits) * ($$ spent each visit)


So let's take the example of Joe Sixpack, Joe goes to his home pool hall 5 nights a week and spends an average of $25 per visit. Joe's ability is calculated as 1/125 * 100 or 100/125 which yields an ability score of .8, meaning that on average Joe will run out .8 balls every time he is at the table.

Take another example of a good B player, 'pockets'. Pockets goes to the pool hall two nights a week for a league and tournament. He spends an average of about $10 each time on two beers and sometimes three. His ability would be 1/20 or 100/20 or average of 5. Meaning we can expect him to run 5 balls every turn.

A typical 'A' player who plays at Teacherman's joint comes in once a week and spends $1 on a bottle of water. This gives him a ranking of 1/1 * 100 or 100. This player is expected to run rack after rack. Notice how if he buys a beer or food, his ability drops off sharply. The key for this player to improve is to find a pool hall with free water so he can raise his ability to incalculable heights.

Hope this clears up some of the confusion.

Cheers,
Regas

 

[Rickw]

I think a lot of it has to do with where you're playing. For instance, you may be an A player in the room you're playing in but a B player in another room. If you are one of the very top players in your pool room, you are an A player in that room. Trying to rate someone an A, B, or C player universally is very difficult in 9 Ball imho. Generally speaking, I think an A player should run a 9b rack just about every time if the balls are spread good and there are no big problems. Also, an A should be able to execute good hooks, safeties and kicks. Their cb control should be very good too allowing for 3 and 4 rails for good shape on the next ball.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I just read over the posts regarding bridge lengths and within it player rankings. I see different posters have rated themselves c+ B's, B+'s etc.etc.

In Vancouver Canada (for 9 ball) we rate our players on a scale as follows.
Pro plus (horsfall, Potier, Torangeau), Pro(mike vidas), A+, A, B+ B, C+, C and I've never heard of a D.

For every ranking you are rated ahead of someone you have to give a handicap.
A pro plus will spot a pro the last two, an A+ the wild 8, an A the wild 8 and the last two, A B+ the 7,8 and 9 and B the 7,8,9 and the last two etc.etc.

I think they hand out high ratings here in Vancouver much, much too easy. John Horsfall has went head to head with the best in the world and won two major tournaments and Paul Potier in his prime can also compete at a very high level.

It's the A's and the A+ rankings that I feel are earned much too easily.What should an A level player be able to do. Can he be even with a pro with a spot of the wild 8 which he is given.I believe if a TRUE A level player was given such a spot that while the pro's going to come out on top the majority of times, that he SHOULD be able to make him work for it.

We have A level players here who can play 12 racks and not break and run one of them and other supposed A level players who's major racks in a row break and runs are only two.What does an A have to be able to do in your area to be considered A level?

I know some local Tiawanese and Philipino players who are A level players here and say they would only be rated C+ and B in their countries.I also know that rankings differ city to city and sometimes pool hall to pool hall within that city.

When I went to school getting an A grade meant that I had to do my various subjects at least 80% right.There's a lot of players ranked A level here that don't make 80% of their kicks, banks, saftiey attempts and run outs when they should.

In summary , what constitutes A level in your area? RJ

Basically, what everyone is trying to say is that any rating system in pool is subjective. You cannot rate someone without comparing them to someone else and the best way to compare two people is to have them play. Any sort of rating system that works beyond this premise is going to be flawed, misleading and generally, open to interpreation. We use terminology such as A, B or C in the most general defintion. An A player is considered competent and capable of beating anyone if the moment is ripe. A B player also has this ability though it would be a much greater surpise if it were to occur. A "C" player will likely make at least one mistake before anyone takes a shot at the 9-ball. These are vague, I realize but this is the internet so vague will have to do.

 

[pete lafond]

Unlike golf there exist no measurement tool enabling one player from out-of-town to fairly match up against the locals. Generally handicapping is based upon the tounament managers knowledge of players followed by each players performance over time.

I once played in a tounament in Ohio which had a few "A" players. Because this area was not heavily populated with strong players, those "A" players would be rated as B somewhere else.

The best way to get a rating is to play in various tournaments and to see how your rating ends up. This is not a perfect system, but it at least gives you some idea of were you stand.

 

[turquoisecrazy]

A is a player who runs out when he is supposed to. "A" player plays safe and hooks his opponent good when he is supposed to.

A and a pro is not the same. A pro have tough mental game and great experience, but an A should be a very soild player running racks when the break is working. Pro can control thematch even when nothing is working. Pro can find ways to turn things around when nothing is wroking.

A+ is a guy going from an A to a Pro. A+ is dsiplying potential to become a pro. lots of A never make pro, lots of pros never make champion.

No system can judge this accuratly. It is the way of life. Too bad. I hate handicapped system. Just go and shoot the ball, if u aint good enough, u aint going to win....truth stinks.

Pete

 

[AuntyDan]

Let me clear this up once and for all. The only thing that determines a players ability is their ability index. The ability index is determined by the number of times they visit their HOME pool hall per week and the amount of money they spend each time.

Nice forumla! However you forgot to factor in a few important variables: The amount they spent on pool cues per year, the number of Pool books and videos they own and whether or not they have ever posted a message on a public forum stating a strong opinion about Predator shafts.

 

[pete lafond]

A and a pro is not the same. A pro have tough mental game and great experience, but an A should be a very soild player running racks when the break is working. Pro can control thematch even when nothing is working. Pro can find ways to turn things around when nothing is wroking.

Same can be said about a C and B and A. Generally a B player will run out more often against a C player than they will against an A. Watching kicking ability, patterns and safeties is huge in determining player rating status. I have played many players who shot great until money or tounament time. So as you stated "mental", is a very important variable when determining rating placement.

 

[scottycoyote]

i read in a book somewhere........and like someone here said before......basically an A player is going to run out the rack every time there is a runable rack....and if not they are gonna run and then safe you and get the ball back, or at least control the table. To me the differences between b+ b and b- is the % of time they can be expected to shoot like an A player.....b+ might run out when they should 70% of the time and up.......b in the middle........b- less than 50%.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I just read over the posts regarding bridge lengths and within it player rankings. I see different posters have rated themselves c+ B's, B+'s etc.etc.

...

Around here we rarely use A-B-C. We use numeric ratings (USPPA, NPL). An A player has a rating of about 100, or 120 if you like your player stronger, I'd guess. These ratings are determined by performance in tournaments and not by some TD's whim and politics. "How does he play?" "He's about a 40 so give him the last three and you'll rob him." "That guy's a 100, but he plays like Efren, sometimes. Stay away from him."

 

[wayne]

The USPPA probably has the best ranking system. Although it is not perfect it is fairly accurate all things considered. Each match played is scored based on the shot when you come to the table, either open or safe, and number of games won. From this through a formula that has been proven workable a number is assigned to each player. Some players (who play regularly) you will find in the pro range of 130-170 include Billy Palmer, Max Eberle, Tony Chohan, Gerald Jamito and Rafael Martinez (who may have passed on). Below this would come what I consider the A to A+ area (100-130) including players like Tony Annigoni, Gary Aboud, Oscar Dominguez and yours truly. Just below this people rated below 100 capable of playing above this level (maybe A-) are Aaron Aragon (the top wheelchair player in the world) and Melissa Herndon. The ranking continue down to as low as a single digit (I guess this is someone that very rarely wins a game nevermind a set).

In pro tournaments the ones in the 130-170 range are going to be tough to beat. Horsfall would probably be around 160 range, Potier around 140, and Tourganeau about 130. The players in the A to A+ range would be capable of upsetting some pros but not likely to win a pro tournament.

The point is there is a system that is fairly workable in pool and it has been around here on the West Coast for many years and people coming from different areas know how to match up based on it.

Wayne

 

[Bobby]

The USPPA probably has the best ranking system. Although it is not perfect it is fairly accurate all things considered. Each match played is scored based on the shot when you come to the table, either open or safe, and number of games won. From this through a formula that has been proven workable a number is assigned to each player. Some players (who play regularly) you will find in the pro range of 130-170 include Billy Palmer, Max Eberle, Tony Chohan, Gerald Jamito and Rafael Martinez (who may have passed on). Below this would come what I consider the A to A+ area (100-130) including players like Tony Annigoni, Gary Aboud, Oscar Dominguez and yours truly. Just below this people rated below 100 capable of playing above this level (maybe A-) are Aaron Aragon (the top wheelchair player in the world) and Melissa Herndon. The ranking continue down to as low as a single digit (I guess this is someone that very rarely wins a game nevermind a set).

In pro tournaments the ones in the 130-170 range are going to be tough to beat. Horsfall would probably be around 160 range, Potier around 140, and Tourganeau about 130. The players in the A to A+ range would be capable of upsetting some pros but not likely to win a pro tournament.

The point is there is a system that is fairly workable in pool and it has been around here on the West Coast for many years and people coming from different areas know how to match up based on it.

Wayne

Rating by numbers does seem to be better and more
accurate than A-B-C or D. The problem is that there
needs to be a universal system that everyone uses.
In 3-cushion billiards they have averages and if
you're say a .700 you can go anywhere in the world
and your average would be recognised.

 

[sixpack]

Nice forumla! However you forgot to factor in a few important variables: The amount they spent on pool cues per year, the number of Pool books and videos they own and whether or not they have ever posted a message on a public forum stating a strong opinion about Predator shafts.

Thanks - I don't know how I could have missed those! I'm sure there are plenty of other factors as well. Like whether or not they like to play on shimmed pockets, whether they have ever had a job, the year of their car.

Cheers,
Regas

 

[Jack Flanagan]

the most important criteria is : beat me 9 out of 10 times in every tournament or you will forever remain a C player....LOL