Situation: I am stripes. I missed a breakout on the 8-ball after a shot in the upper left corner pocket. The skill of my opponent is that he will easily get out on me so I plan on playing aggressive.
I just laid this out on my table- as close as possible to your diagram- and successfully banked the 8 into the pocket by the 3 (twice out of 5- including my first try). I played high left- but both the cueball and 8 follow the line to the pocket. It would depend on the EXACT position of the 2 whether you'd scratch or not (off the 3-ball). I didn't scratch in my 5 tries, but the cueball did get in the way on the 3 misses.
Situation: I am stripes. I missed a breakout on the 8-ball after a shot in the upper left corner pocket. The skill of my opponent is that he will easily get out on me so I plan on playing aggressive.
Defense is out of the question here. This is, almost certainly, your last chance to win the rack.
Tough to tell from the diagram whether the eight passes the two for either the three rail bank in the side or the corner. If so, I think I prefer the three rail bank into the side, and will play shape for it as I pocket the eleven ball. If not, you can carom the eight into the bottom corner off the back of the two (correct me is that's outside the rules).
I just reset the table and tried the shot again using Low-outside (low-left& medium stroke)- this worked much better in clearing the cue-ball from the bank-path (the cue effectively "draws" off the 2-ball).. However- the 8 usually went long to the bottom rail, and played off the 3-ball, but... it still went in.
The 8-ball would not pass the 2-ball. It would pass only if the rail was compressed by a hard stroke. My thought was to go for the three railer in the corner.
I just reset the table and tried the shot again using Low-outside (low-left& medium stroke)- this worked much better in clearing the cue-ball from the bank-path (the cue effectively "draws" off the 2-ball).. However- the 8 usually went long to the bottom rail, and played off the 3-ball, but... it still went in.
Hey Ray,
I really like your idea! It never occured to me that this could be a clearance shot. I will have to try this out on the table when I get the chance.
As shown, I laid the balls out like the diagram- The 8 doesn't go behind the 2-ball, The cueball hits the 2 out of the way for the banking 8.
8-ball ~3/8" off the rail
2-ball 1/8" away from 8- and at an angle pointing to ~1/2 the way between the 2nd and 3rd diamonds of the bottom rail
The cueball hits the 8 first (clean) it caroms (into the 2) and knocks the 2 out of the way- before the 8 comes off the rail. The "draw" on the cueball- is enhanced by the collision with the 2, and the cue exits the scene quickly- allowing the 8 to pass BELOW it on the table. You don't have to hit hard at all- slightly less than medium speed is fine.
The outside english (left) on the cueball- shortens the bank-angle for the 8- also allowing more time for the 2 and cueball to clear the bank-path... When I switched to draw engish, it was no problewn getting the cueball out of the bank-path (in fact, it travels all the way uptable)
After setting this up several times... I'd say I could make this 75+% of the time especially with the 3ball sitting there..
Hypothesis: Backside caroms require the blocking ball to be very close to a full ball-width from the rail- or at least room to compress the cushion enough to "get" to the backside of the blocker (minimum distance only)
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It's hard to judge from a WEI diagram- but in this case- the 2 is just too close to the rail (~ 7/8 of a ball)- it will always be hit by the 8 "on the way in" instead of the "way out"... This was the reason I chose the bank as an alternative. But your suggestion intrigued me.
I reset the shot taking into consideration that the diagram may be a bit off. I started with the 2-ball exactly 1-ball width from the rail. **Note: The 8-ball was placed 1/8" away from the blocker- and 1/4" away from the rail for all tests, so the blocker was OBVIOUSLY in the way...
This shot was SURPRISINGLY easy. I made it the first 5 tries- then continued using all different types of english while watching for any spin-transfer to the 8-ball. the 8-ball rotation was pretty constant (and there was ALOT)- spinning clockwise on it's axis (seen from above) and tilted ~20-30 degrees. The incoming shot angle could be varied from 25-50 degrees and still pocket the 8. The shallower angles seemed to pocket the 8 better- with it hugging the rail easily at 25-35 degrees. Speed was constant on the light side of medium. (Wish I had a radar gun...)
I gradually moved the 2-ball closer to the rail- so a ball would (just barely) not pass- but you could compress the rail with the ball and force it by without touching- The results I got were 3-made, 7-misses (most not close). By the time the 2 was ~ 15/16ths ball-width from the rail (could not force a ball by)- the shot became virtually "impossible"- with the 8 missing the pocket by several inches- most coming off at an angle to the short-rail comparable to the incoming shot-angle (or stopping in place).
The next thing I did was FREEZE the 8-ball to the blocker at a 45 degree angle (for this experiment, lets assume the incoming and outgoing angle of the 8-ball can not total more than 90-degrees). I could not come close to pocketing the 8. However, once the angle approached ~25 degrees, I could again pocket the 8-ball. Frozen 8's at lesser angles increased the probablity of pocketing the 8-ball. The best incoming shot angle remained near 45 degrees
A= 0 degrees to rail (WEI is messing with this line)
B= 90 degrees to blocker
C= angle of frozen ball (~25 degrees relative to A)
D= incoming shot angle (~45 degrees relative to A)
Conclusions: If the blocking ball is very nearly 1-ball width (or greater) from the rail -AND- the object ball's path to the rail is less than 45 degrees- THEN the shot is possible with a good probability of success.
Next time you have some spare table-time, you may want to indulge yourself and experiment with this. I hope this helps if you're ever faced with this shot- I know I 'll remember to measure the distance of the blocker from the rail the next time this shot comes up for me. Thanks for the suggestion.
I'll let someone else experiment with the blocking ball further from the rail...
Thanks, but it wasn't my suggestion... Thank SJM and ForeRail (who concurred). I just experimented with it because your WEI Table had the 2-ball placed too close to the rail.. so I chose to bank it.
I will definately be looking at the gap when this shot comes up again- as I have seen it many times. Never realizing it was that easy.
Ray
I video'd the test... don't have the right cable to dump it to the computer though...
Situation: I am stripes. I missed a breakout on the 8-ball after a shot in the upper left corner pocket. The skill of my opponent is that he will easily get out on me so I plan on playing aggressive.
Hit 8 slightly to the right of center, with 3/4 tip center cue ball right hand english. 8 to the rail with spin, off rail, off 2 ball, to corner pocket.
