What does it take to "Play Hard" that I don't have.

[lewdo26]

... I'm reconsidering it to see if it is really a valid, valuable thought or just a cop-out on effort.

When I've proclaimed repeatedly in person and in writing that I play for other reasons besides winning, I'm being honest with myself...I thought, anyway. But, am I really being honest with my process of growing as a pool player? I'm not sure at this moment.

What if all this talk, about pool filling other needs besides winning, is just a convenient excuse for losers? A "good" reason to not do one's best? Maybe I'm too lazy to really get good and, to save face, I make up a reason that sounds good (and is good?) that still allows me to stay lazy and noncompetitive (compared to the better winners, that is).

Thinking outloud here....any comments?

...

Jeff Livingston

Since the "Inner Game of Tennis" was cited, it doesn't hurt to say that Galwey has a FASCINATING discussion on whether to make winning a motivation or not ("The Meaning of Competition" chapter). He went through what you went through, and came away playing every match to WIN.

I know, when I don't play to win, I'm not giving it my best effort. AND, if I lose and it doesn't sting, I didn't care for it enough.

 

[lewdo26]

It might be the way you concentrate. If you make concentration an effort, you will naturally want or need to take a break from it.

However, if concentration takes the form of absorption, it will become fascinating and no effort at all. In short, it will become fun instead of work.

I strongly recommend the book "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Tim Galway. The book is not much at all about tennis; it is about how to concentrate. It's a great read with tons that applies wonderfully to pool.

EXACTLY!!!TAP, TAP, TAP!

 

[lewdo26]

[/QUOTE=Wolven]I don't think that pool requires more concentration than chess. I remember marathon blitz session 5, 3, or 2 minute games where for hours concentration never swayed even for a second (exception when setting up pieces). You cannot play chess at top level (Master and above) without concentrating all the time. [/QUOTE]

When I quit playing chess tournaments, I played in the high 2300s level. I beat a few IMs and one GM (Alexander Shabalov) in a simultaneous display he give. So it was the biggest part of my life growing up and into early adulthood.

I forgot a lot about chess... But I don't remember wandering off being as punishing in chess as it is in pool. Blitz games are a different animal, altogether. And psychologically fascinating as well, because they induce a state of "flow", depending.

In tournament chess, you can think about the wheather a bit and the position will remain the same. In pool, you missed the freakin' shot!

 

[Snapshot9]

Games or Sport

You can be good at any game, but to be great you have to treat it as a sport ..... and sports take discipline and training.

So, is it a game or sport to you? To be great, you have to make sacrifices.

 

[Mike_Mason]

Common ground??...

I've repeated this thought many times, but now I'm reconsidering it to see if it is really a valid, valuable thought or just a cop-out on effort.

When I've proclaimed repeatedly in person and in writing that I play for other reasons besides winning, I'm being honest with myself...I thought, anyway. But, am I really being honest with my process of growing as a pool player? I'm not sure at this moment.

What if all this talk, about pool filling other needs besides winning, is just a convenient excuse for losers? A "good" reason to not do one's best? Maybe I'm too lazy to really get good and, to save face, I make up a reason that sounds good (and is good?) that still allows me to stay lazy and noncompetitive (compared to the better winners, that is).

Or is it more rational and happiness-generating to put winning on the back burner and focus on other reasons for playing? But then why compete at all if winning isn't the main reason? Playing alone, maybe, but when competing?...shouldn't winning be the top reason for competing? Is that what CaptJR and the rest of us "losers" are (not) doing?

One more: If I'm playing for other reasons besides winning, would I win more if I turned my motivation toward winning and away from playing correctly, in harmony with myself, blah, blah, blah. And would this attitude make me happier in the long run, especially if I won more?

Thinking outloud here....any comments?

Jeff Livingston

Jeff

You make good points here. And in the end imo we probably agree on most points.

I’m not saying that the Captain…or anyone else…should show up for a competition and just lay down and let everyone walk all over him. The point I’m making is that we should accept lulls in concentration, will to win, etc…if we are not professionals. The professional can’t afford to ever let up.

I’m just guessing that the Captain…and many others…experience phases where we just don’t have the edge that we do have at other times. We should take it with a grain of salt and know that over the long haul we win precisely as much as we expect to win. And my guess is that most people who post here are winners most of the time even without that consuming need to excel at all times.

And if 64 people enter a tournament…and they all have that burning desire to win…well there will be 63 very disappointed people. Fact is most people entering a tournament…say like the Florida Tour…know they can’t win. So winning is not everything for most people.

Doing our best should be enough imo…and if we let up now and then…well maybe next time we’ll try harder…

Mike

 

[justnum]

Giving it 120% all the time is just too stressful for me. It is a game and to me it should be fun anytime the game stops being fun I feel like I am taking myself too seriously.

 

[smurf]

Buddy Halls' opinion

On an accu-stats video where Buddy was doing the commentary,one of the playersis playing poorly. Buddy said to his co-host, Did you ever get to doggin' it so bad that you just totally forgot how to play? Boy I sure have."
Made me feel much better about my own lapses...

 

[TheConArtist]

second post to this thread, i am going to work on playing hard all the time even if i have a big lead you know like a blow out i am striving to play like i am down in the match cause you never know how easy it is for your opponent to comeback and win the match. Cause when you do have a big lead you lose your focus and such cause you think the odds are with you to win the match and like i said i play good in pressure matches but i am going to work on playing like this even when in fun time with my girlfriend or buddies, no more playing around but playing hard LOL.

 

[Drop1]

Play Hard

Simple,you ain't a player.

 

[Wolven]

[When I quit playing chess tournaments, I played in the high 2300s level. I beat a few IMs and one GM (Alexander Shabalov) in a simultaneous display he give. So it was the biggest part of my life growing up and into early adulthood.

I forgot a lot about chess... But I don't remember wandering off being as punishing in chess as it is in pool. Blitz games are a different animal, altogether. And psychologically fascinating as well, because they induce a state of "flow", depending.

In tournament chess, you can think about the wheather a bit and the position will remain the same. In pool, you missed the freakin' shot![/QUOTE]}

Yes, blitz is a lot different than a tournament game. In blitz concentration is constant. In tournament games you get breaks, just like the breaks between shoots. However, when you calculate the variation and are trying to see deep into the position the level of concentration is greater than in pool or perhaps it is the mental strain that is greater. If you are in time trouble a momentary lapse of concentration and you are gone. If you have time you can comeback and recalculate. Jump a few times around the tree and you are down 30 minutes. The concentration in pool is just for a moment, then you take a break, then you concentrate for another moment, easier. The hard part is coordination.

Just to establish I'm a Master too 2300+ in OTB, but not US rating. Somewhat of a correspondence player couple of draws with world champions. And a blitz maniac at one time with many wins over GM's and IM's. Now retired, because for one chess requires too much thinking and two I find it boring.

I have replaced my chess addiction with pool, not necessarily an improvement.

BTW. Congrats on beating Shabalov

 

[X Breaker]

I'm sure it looks like sometimes I don't care if I win or not. I have a friend, two of them actually that give every shot 100%. One of the friends I'm talking about rarely losses. The other isn't as good a player, but I've seen this win matches for him that I didn't expect him to win.

I've even sat and watched others that are like me and said to myself, "I don't want to be like that". Then I go right back to it. Just playing well for a while till I get a little pleased with myself. Then goof off for a while and end up having a losing day.

I just don't understand why I don't "Play Hard" all the time. I do it at times, but normally not for an entire match. I win a lot of matches, certainly more than I lose. I know that if I could do this I'd end up a lot higher in the tournaments than I do now.

Being that I do realize what I'm talking about here, I don't understand why I don't do it. If I didn't know it, that would be one thing, but I know that I need to do this and still don't get it done.

Some kind of super duper desire to win that I don't seem to have. Is it that I really don't care that much? Do you think this is something you can learn to do? Or am I just SOL


Thanks for letting me vent.
JR

I was told that you have to want it bad enough to become a really good player. You have to want to win so bad that you will try your best never to miss a shot; you will want to win so bad that you cannot stand not giving it a 100%; you want to keep yourself at the table and your opponent at the chair so bad that you will try everything to bring your best game to the table.

Some people just do not want to win that bad: it is fine when they win, but it is alright if they lose. If you do not want to win real bad, you are unlikely to be motivated to really try your very best.

Richard

 

[chefjeff]

Jeff, you have deffinitely hit the nail on the head as far as where does our motivation for the game come from. Just when we think one school of thought is the truth something else comes to the forefront to contradict that truth.

The bottom line is, motivation is as varied as each individual playing the game.

Some can not be motivated unless money is involved. Some can concentrate flawlessly in practice only to lose that concentration in games that have real importance to them.

I believe in taking notes.

I write down what I believed at the time (right or wrong) to be motivating factors for good and poor play. I can not put 100% reliability in these factors because sometimes my losses can be attributtied to poor fundamentals, excellent play from my opponent, or simply the rolls leave me nothing but kicks.

Yet as I accumulate these motivating factors I find some truths emerging. The problem is those truths have to match the circumstances almost every time.

Experience is our best teacher. Writing it down gives us a quick reference and reenforces what what we learned, instead of a foggy memory of what it was like at the time.

I like writing down things, too...it helps my long-term thinking if I write down stuff as it comes up. I use what I call my "recipe" for doing this.

I examined my reasons for playing years ago and determined I needed more "killer thinking" to win more. So, I started hanging with a guy who was obsessed with winning, but not really with playing with good fundamentals. Yet, he instilled in me a desire to beat the "chumps," as he called them. If I let up on a dollar game of partners we were playing in a bar, he'd yell at me. I'd say, "It was only for a dollar, so what?," and he'd jump all over my shit telling me that if I can't beat chumps, I'll never beat the good players in a pressure situation. This helped my focus on winning.

CaptainJR, maybe you need a partner who can do the same for you? It didn't completely change who I am, but it did add a little bit of the killer thinking to my shot. I still play half-assed, if I have no motivation for winning, but when I compete in league or tournaments, I play several notches better than when I practice or play for fun. I like that part of my play even if it isn't good enough to always beat the big boys. But do I dislike the losing enough to put forth the effort to go to the next level? Stay tuned.

Here's some affirmations (written in my recipe) that I sometimes (whoops---that's THE problem, heh?) use when establishing my attitude for a shot:

Winning is easier than losing.

I love being a winner!

I'm a winner of not just a game, but of matches and sessions.

It's not like me to lose, It is like me to win.

When I beat him/her, s/he can handle it.

Winning draws valuable people towards me.

People like winners.

I'm not easily satisfied.

I enjoy being the real me (a winner).

I always kick butt!

I own this shot.

I am an army of one.


Jeff Livingston

 

[lewdo26]

Yes, blitz is a lot different than a tournament game. In blitz concentration is constant. In tournament games you get breaks, just like the breaks between shoots. However, when you calculate the variation and are trying to see deep into the position the level of concentration is greater than in pool or perhaps it is the mental strain that is greater. If you are in time trouble a momentary lapse of concentration and you are gone. If you have time you can comeback and recalculate. Jump a few times around the tree and you are down 30 minutes. The concentration in pool is just for a moment, then you take a break, then you concentrate for another moment, easier. The hard part is coordination.

Just to establish I'm a Master too 2300+ in OTB, but not US rating. Somewhat of a correspondence player couple of draws with world champions. And a blitz maniac at one time with many wins over GM's and IM's. Now retired, because for one chess requires too much thinking and two I find it boring.

I have replaced my chess addiction with pool, not necessarily an improvement.

BTW. Congrats on beating Shabalov

Hey, Wolven. Sounds like you're a stronger chess player than I've been. Good stuff. Still, we quite simply disagree on the concentration issue.

I find that lapses in concentration in-between shots (and even in the chair) can make the difference between winning or losing a pool match.

It is true that in chess, certain critical situations force you into uninterrupted concentration. But, generally, I think there is more leeway, simply because in chess there is no EXECUTION.

We DO agree on chess being a little boring, however. I made the switch to pool two years ago, and, even though it'll take a while for me to be as strong as I was in chess, I do not regret it. Again, because I have a bias toward *executing* what you plan.

BTW, I was chronically in time-trouble during my chess career. And now I have issues with rythm in pool. Oh well... Take good care.

 

[Wolven]

Hey, Wolven. Sounds like you're a stronger chess player than I've been. Good stuff. Still, we quite simply disagree on the concentration issue.

I find that lapses in concentration in-between shots (and even in the chair) can make the difference between winning or losing a pool match.

It is true that in chess, certain critical situations force you into uninterrupted concentration. But, generally, I think there is more leeway, simply because in chess there is no EXECUTION.

We DO agree on chess being a little boring, however. I made the switch to pool two years ago, and, even though it'll take a while for me to be as strong as I was in chess, I do not regret it. Again, because I have a bias toward *executing* what you plan.

BTW, I was chronically in time-trouble during my chess career. And now I have issues with rythm in pool. Oh well... Take good care.

I think we both were pretty good at chess and gave it up because one day it just didn’t feel the same. That's funny, I was always in time trouble too, it was an addiction.
I finally overcame the problem more or less.

There are certain things that make me play badly, beside the fact I don’t always aim. For instance, talking to people, playing with friends, or with a new girlfriend. I have to turnoff outside world to play my best and that takes concentration. I have had problem shooting for few days, which was weird I went from running racks, making long shots, tough cuts to missing everything. This went on for a few days. Someone told me I was not aligned and that was true as I was compensating for my misses by holding my arm close to the body. Anyway midway through a tournament I realized what I was doing wrong and suddenly everything came back!

I love this game. In chess it was a grind just to maintain the level. In pool I learn something new everyday and I’m improving fast which is nice.

See you around.