What is a Custom Cue in your opinion

  • Thread starter Bruce S. de Lis
  • Start date

jjinfla

Banned
A custom cue would be one that is specifically made for one individual with that individual's own specifications. It can be hand made or machine made but it is made for that one person.

Then there are hand made one of a kind cues that are made at the cue makers specifications.

Jake
 
B

Bruce S. de Lis

Guest
Jack Madden said:
Custom - built per players specs
Customized - modified from existing cue
Handmade - hands on building
One of a kind - only one - no duplicates

I just built 20+ cues to take to the Allen Hopkins Expo. I delivered one custom order but all the other cues were all "one of a kind" (only built one and have not built the same cue before and do not intend to build it again), they were all "handmade" (turned those planks of wood myself - of course I used my trusty mill and lathes), were they custom? I built them with the points and inlays that I wanted to build and the bolt, joint, linen, ferrule, and shaft taper were the specs I have started using as my standard based on the majority of the requests I receive for custom orders. I think the buyers felt they bought a cue from a custom cuemaker - the specs were what they wanted, it felt good, it hit good, and they fell in love with the looks of the cue and it is the only John Madden Cue out there like it.
Jack
www.johnmaddencues.com


Great Post, and Jack makes GREAT CUES.... ;) I know as I got the Pair Pictured Below by Madden..... ;)
 

Jon

Custom User Title
Silver Member
Just a question. (and probably more than that...)
We all see the phrase; "my/customer specs".
What exactly does that mean?
Most people go on to say, their/customer; weight, balance, shaft taper, ferrule, tip, joint.
But there are so many other things that would make a cue hit, feel and play differently, than the above listed.
One is the taper on the butt, and the butt diameters.
When i get around to finishing up the cues i have hanging around, i'm going to make the butt tapers/diameters the same on each. If someone were to ask me to make him or her a cue, it would be the same. The butt taper/diameters are what they are for a reason.
Doing the a-joint differently can change the way a cue hits/feels/plays.
Even the way the Joint pin is installed can make a difference in how the cue hits/feels/plays.
The way the ferrule is installed can make a difference in how the cue hit's/feels/plays. How many people even ask how the ferrule is installed when they order a cue? And how many people ask that it be done different?

The above-mentioned "specs" (Weight, balance, shaft taper, ferrule, tip, joint) are fine to mess around with (except for the shaft taper, if a builder is known for making a stiff playing cue, don't ask for a whippy shaft...), but some things should be left to the maker to decide.
Myself, and i'm sure that there are others, that would not take an order for a cue that has a design they are uncomfortable with, or they think wouldn't look/work out right, or resemble a popular design of another maker.
Personally, if i were to order a cue from a "Big Name" cuemaker. I would tell them the woods i want, the general basic design (points/inlays/rings, as long as it didn't conflict with what the maker likes to build) and leave the building to the builder. They became "Big Name" cuemakers for a reason.

And don't ask so-and-so to make you a southwest. If you want one, get one, from southwest.
I know a guy that wanted a Scruggs; he went to a local (to him), lesser-known cuemaker and asked him to make him a "Tim Scruggs Cue". The maker had one, and copied the "specs" and held one hell of a tolerance, it looked like a Scruggs, but it wasn't a Scruggs.

Most cue makers are known for something, be it the way they look, the way they play, the way they hit, etc.
I think people should let the maker build it they way the maker thinks it should be done. Come up with a design, pick your weight/balance, discuss the tip/ferrule choice and let the maker do what he is being paid to do.

I apologize for the above rambling,

Jon
 

hadjcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BiG_JoN said:
Just a question. (and probably more than that...)
We all see the phrase; "my/customer specs".
What exactly does that mean?
Most people go on to say, their/customer; weight, balance, shaft taper, ferrule, tip, joint.
But there are so many other things that would make a cue hit, feel and play differently, than the above listed.
One is the taper on the butt, and the butt diameters.
When i get around to finishing up the cues i have hanging around, i'm going to make the butt tapers/diameters the same on each. If someone were to ask me to make him or her a cue, it would be the same. The butt taper/diameters are what they are for a reason.
Doing the a-joint differently can change the way a cue hits/feels/plays.
Even the way the Joint pin is installed can make a difference in how the cue hits/feels/plays.
The way the ferrule is installed can make a difference in how the cue hit's/feels/plays. How many people even ask how the ferrule is installed when they order a cue? And how many people ask that it be done different?

The above-mentioned "specs" (Weight, balance, shaft taper, ferrule, tip, joint) are fine to mess around with (except for the shaft taper, if a builder is known for making a stiff playing cue, don't ask for a whippy shaft...), but some things should be left to the maker to decide.
Myself, and i'm sure that there are others, that would not take an order for a cue that has a design they are uncomfortable with, or they think wouldn't look/work out right, or resemble a popular design of another maker.
Personally, if i were to order a cue from a "Big Name" cuemaker. I would tell them the woods i want, the general basic design (points/inlays/rings, as long as it didn't conflict with what the maker likes to build) and leave the building to the builder. They became "Big Name" cuemakers for a reason.

And don't ask so-and-so to make you a southwest. If you want one, get one, from southwest.
I know a guy that wanted a Scruggs; he went to a local (to him), lesser-known cuemaker and asked him to make him a "Tim Scruggs Cue". The maker had one, and copied the "specs" and held one hell of a tolerance, it looked like a Scruggs, but it wasn't a Scruggs.

Most cue makers are known for something, be it the way they look, the way they play, the way they hit, etc.
I think people should let the maker build it they way the maker thinks it should be done. Come up with a design, pick your weight/balance, discuss the tip/ferrule choice and let the maker do what he is being paid to do.

I apologize for the above rambling,

Jon

No need to apologize pal... no need :D
 
B

Bruce S. de Lis

Guest
BiG_JoN said:
And don't ask so-and-so to make you a southwest. If you want one, get one, from southwest.


I apologize for the above rambling,

Jon



Right now there are many builders doing SouthWest Styles. Coker, Capone, Phoenix Cue Company, BCM, and a bunch more.

Not a SouthWest, SouthWest Style. Also want a Real SouthWest, guess you will have to wait 7 years I hear.

Imitation is a very High Form of Flattery. Counterfeiting a SouthWest, and calling a Fake a southWest is a Crime... ;)
 
Jersey said:
and people say they are 'production', but talk to Evan and he'll tell you, you know he's got 5 craftsman working there, they make every cue by hand, and are definately not what people consider ''production'...ie McD, Viking, Meucci etc...

my 2c-


So how does McDermott, Viking, Meucci, etc. make their cues...by robotics and an assembly line? Or do they just continually run ads in the classifieds for PT workers at minimum wage?
 
Bruce S. de Lis said:
I personally feel a TRUE CUSTOM Cue is made by a Low Production Cue Maker, and not a High Production Cuemaker like Mucci, or Joss. (not picking on them just useing two makers names)


That has absolutely nothing at all to do with it.

ALL cuemakers are just that...CUEMAKERS.

ALL cuemakers can make a CUSTOM cue, since they all started out the same way when breaking into the business and learning how to do it. Dan Janes and Bob Meucci can not only make a great custom cue, but maybe even better than most out there due to their experience and years making cues.

I think more thought needs to be given to who and what the cuemakers modus operandi normally is as well as the definition of a variety of cuemakers.

The word "custom" is so very loosely thrown around when referring to a cuemaker, especially if you go by the definition of making a cue to a customers specifications and input.

Although there are some super big names in the industry that all of us would cherish owning one of their cues, in the strictest sense they really aren't "custom" cue makers by the above definition.

Some are "SPEC" cuemakers. In other words making cues to their specs with their designs, their big name, and one of a kind. It's kind of like a homebuilder that makes a "spec" home and throws it on the market for sale.

Many cuemakers have a "line" of cues. Well hell, that puts them in the category of being a production cue maker. They're just not putting out the high numbers of the known big name producers. And for financial gain, they're probably also wishing that they had the know-how and facilities to do it big.
Although Jacoby is probably looked at as a "custom" cue maker primarily, I would have to put him in this category.

And I think ALL of them go through various phases annually with the making of their cues that would classify them in any number of ways. For instance, Jack Madden mentioned that he made a bunch of cues to take to VF that were one of a kind. Is Jack Madden a custom cue maker? Sure! Again, so is Dan Janes and Bob Meucci. But that particular BATCH of cues, to me, were one of a kind spec cues.

If I called Jack up and said, "Hey Jack, can you make me a cue that has this that and everything else in it to my specs" and he says "YEP", then for that cue he's a "CUSTOM" cue builder. I think ALL CUEMAKERS change faces, titles, and products on a regular basis...in the strictest sense.
 

MrLucky

Pool Fanatic!!
Silver Member
hhhmmmm......

drivermaker said:
That has absolutely nothing at all to do with it.

ALL cuemakers are just that...CUEMAKERS.

true!

ALL cuemakers can make a CUSTOM cue, since they all started out the same way when breaking into the business and learning how to do it. Dan Janes and Bob Meucci can not only make a great custom cue, but maybe even better than most out there due to their experience and years making cues.

I think more thought needs to be given to who and what the cuemakers modus operandi normally is as well as the definition of a variety of cuemakers.

The word "custom" is so very loosely thrown around when referring to a cuemaker, especially if you go by the definition of making a cue to a customers specifications and input.

true!

Although there are some super big names in the industry that all of us would cherish owning one of their cues, in the strictest sense they really aren't "custom" cue makers by the above definition.

Some are "SPEC" cuemakers. In other words making cues to their specs with their designs, their big name, and one of a kind. It's kind of like a homebuilder that makes a "spec" home and throws it on the market for sale.

Not true! as an architect I must differ with you here!, I design and build a home to my or a clients specs and it is a one of a kind it is a CUSTOM built home ! now similar to McDermott or another cuemaker ... If I am building a tract of homes and I alter the plans of 1 home but maintain the original base design it is not a custom home! spec home in builders language means it is built entirely to the specifications of the client ! though this term is abused by builders just like custom is abused by cuemakers!


Many cuemakers have a "line" of cues. Well hell, that puts them in the category of being a production cue maker. They're just not putting out the high numbers of the known big name producers. And for financial gain, they're probably also wishing that they had the know-how and facilities to do it big.
Although Jacoby is probably looked at as a "custom" cue maker primarily, I would have to put him in this category.

true! I have a Jacoby and it in my opinion is not a custom cue ! I have a SAMSARA also (a quite costly one ) but it is not a custom cue! I have a Palmer made specifically to my uncles wishes and desires for me by Palmer ! by hand! and it is a CUSTOM cue!

And I think ALL of them go through various phases annually with the making of their cues that would classify them in any number of ways. For instance, Jack Madden mentioned that he made a bunch of cues to take to VF that were one of a kind. Is Jack Madden a custom cue maker? Sure! Again, so is Dan Janes and Bob Meucci. But that particular BATCH of cues, to me, were one of a kind spec cues.

true!

If I called Jack up and said, "Hey Jack, can you make me a cue that has this that and everything else in it to my specs" and he says "YEP", then for that cue he's a "CUSTOM" cue builder. I think ALL CUEMAKERS change faces, titles, and products on a regular basis...in the strictest sense.
true! see we can agree on most things at least here anyway, perhaps not all but Hell ! its a start! LOL! :D
 
MrLucky said:
true! see we can agree on most things at least here anyway, perhaps not all but Hell ! its a start! LOL! :D


This couldn't possibly be the real you speaking....when did you go back on drugs? It doesn't matter...keep taking them! :D LMAO
 

MrLucky

Pool Fanatic!!
Silver Member
now see there I am nice to you and what do you do?

drivermaker said:
This couldn't possibly be the real you speaking....when did you go back on drugs? It doesn't matter...keep taking them! :D LMAO

My drugs now are for Diabetes and a back injury ! I do like a cup of good frersh ground coffee now and then Though ..... I didn't have one this morning perhaps that has to do with my sudden wave of kindness and benevolent behaviour! :D
 
MrLucky said:
My drugs now are for Diabetes and a back injury ! I do like a cup of good frersh ground coffee now and then Though ..... I didn't have one this morning perhaps that has to do with my sudden wave of kindness and benevolent behaviour! :D


Aaaaah...I knew something was up. ;)
 

Jack Madden

John Madden Cues
Silver Member
drivermaker said:
Is Jack Madden a custom cue maker? Sure! Again, so is Dan Janes and Bob Meucci. But that particular BATCH of cues, to me, were one of a kind spec cues.

If I called Jack up and said, "Hey Jack, can you make me a cue that has this that and everything else in it to my specs" and he says "YEP", then for that cue he's a "CUSTOM" cue builder. I think ALL CUEMAKERS change faces, titles, and products on a regular basis...in the strictest sense.

And you want the cuemaker to change faces and put out those spec cues. It (at least in my case) lets me be creative and try new designs and new ideas. I have found I love doing recut/remachined/milled points - but I didn't have anyone order one so I had to try it - and after all the work I completed a new spec cue because I nailed it and have kept on making them. Another cue no one would have ordered and I wanted to try was a cue with 6 inlays in the butt - each inlay wrapped 420 degrees (not 360) around the butt. Again, I wasn't going to get someone call up out of the blue and order a cue with a butt inlay of 420 degrees. I took that cue to the Allen Hopkins Expo. So those spec cues in some ways are better than a strictly "custom" - builder will maybe spend twice the time to nail the idea. And I have a lot more ideas I want to try.

Jack Madden
www.johnmaddencues.com
 

StormHotRod300

BigSexy
Silver Member
Tomorrow i am picking up my Espiritu cue, that i put some money on to hold it, till i could pay it off. Its Brand new, Now i myself did not call up Russ or anything about having this cue made. But one of the pool halls i goto has several Espiritu cues for sale, none of them are the same, some are similar but are a little different from each other.

Now since i didnt have this cue specially made for me, does that mean its not a custom? I dont think so. I have no clue on if there are other cues exactly like mine in the world or not. But that doesnt mean this cue cant be consider'd a custom.

The owner of the Golden 8ball, Fred has a a couple Jurries Cue's one is a jump/break and another is just a regular playing cue, and then just a Jump Cue.

now the Playing cue was made using the butt of a house cue, a New Shaft, and Butt Cap, and has a wrap put on it. And basically untill a few days ago, i thought it was built from scratch, untill i found out different. Now this cue plays like a dream and there is probably one 1 in the world.

The Jump cue, was something he only made 4 of ever. And it is very nice for a jump cue.

The Jump/ Break is the same way, looks very nice, even though its plain. And I believe there was only 2 or 3 of them ever made.

So i guess it just depends on what the person consider's to be a custom cue.
 
B

Bruce S. de Lis

Guest
Jack Madden said:
Another cue no one would have ordered and I wanted to try was a cue with 6 inlays in the butt - each inlay wrapped 420 degrees (not 360) around the butt. Again, I wasn't going to get someone call up out of the blue and order a cue with a butt inlay of 420 degrees. I took that cue to the Allen Hopkins Expo. So those spec cues in some ways are better than a strictly "custom" - builder will maybe spend twice the time to nail the idea. And I have a lot more ideas I want to try.

Jack Madden
www.johnmaddencues.com

Picture is worth 1,000 Words

wirebutt.jpg


Unique Cue Butt ;)
 
StormHotRod300 said:
Tomorrow i am picking up my Espiritu cue, that i put some money on to hold it, till i could pay it off. Its Brand new, Now i myself did not call up Russ or anything about having this cue made. But one of the pool halls i goto has several Espiritu cues for sale, none of them are the same, some are similar but are a little different from each other.

Now since i didnt have this cue specially made for me, does that mean its not a custom? I dont think so.


If it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside and happier than a pig in shit...then it's a custom cue.

Since I'm not getting those same feelings as you, in my opinion...it ain't. It's a spec cue made by Russ Espiritu that you bought for yourself. And I mean that with no disrespect to Russ and his cues. He makes a nice cue. If you want a custom cue from him, call back and order another one and this time tell him EVERYTHING that you want from weight, balance point, inlays, design, joint type/collar, ferrule, wrap,....the whole Kahuna. Then you'll have a custom cue.
 
Jack Madden said:
And you want the cuemaker to change faces and put out those spec cues. It (at least in my case) lets me be creative and try new designs and new ideas.


You damn right I want them to and there's nothing wrong with it. It's just business. You can't wait all day for the phone to ring to have someone order a true "custom cue", unless you're one of the guys with a 5-6 year waiting list. And even then, THEY throw in a couple of overruns, "extra" cues, or spec cues with their batch of pure customs and put them up for sale. Why not? IT's MONEY!!

Hey...I'm in the same boat as you. Do you see what my name is? It's Drivermaker...just like Chris Hightower's is Cuemaker. There's no difference other than the product...a cue vs. a golf club.

What amuses me at times is how a number of forum members are so hung up on getting a "custom" cue from a no name cue maker just because the word "custom" is associated with it or on his business card. "CUSTOM CUEMAKER". Big f*#king deal. I'll explain what I mean from a golf standpoint which is no different.

Let's assume that a guy is an avid golfer and wants to learn how to either work on his golf clubs by changing his own grips, or decides that he wants to learn how to build them. He orders some catalogs with components such as shafts, heads, grips, ferrules, and all the tools to do the job. (Like Atlas Billiards) He then gets a VHS tape, CD, or illustrated book that goes through the steps of repairing and building a club. In the process of learning, he destroys a few of his own through screw ups, but after a while he learns how to slap some epoxy together with the various components, install a grip, and before you know it he has his own golf club that he made. He then starts doing some work for friends and before you know it, he wants to open his own shop. So he rents space, buys more equipment, gets his business cards made up along with his storefront sign and they all read the same....
"CUSTOM CLUBS". There you go... the magic word...."CUSTOM".

Big f*#king deal!!! At his point of his business career, he's basically a moron without the slightest indication of how to build a TRUE custom golf club with all of the finite measurements and specs that go into one which MUST BE ATTUNED TO THE GOLFERS SWING THAT HE'S MAKING THE CLUB FOR!! And most of them NEVER get to that point because they aren't professional golfers and have a true understanding of the golf swing to match the club to it.

So, what do you see lined up in his shop for sale...golf clubs that he slapped together in his back room and they're called "custom" golf clubs. Why? Because he's an independent builder of clubs not associated, affiliated, or working directly for a big name production company. WHAT A MISNOMER!
The same thing as in the cue making business. Basically, he IS a PRODUCTION company, just in a much smaller way than the major golf producers. Plus, his products are typically inferior in quality as well as workmanship to the major producers. There's nothing "CUSTOM" at this point. They're a "spec" club which he mass produced to fit his little shop.

Yet...somehow or another, that magic word "CUSTOM" rings through the skulls of buyers and makes them think they're getting a superior product or something over and above what they're getting otherwise from the major names, but ESPECIALLY in pool cues.

In my case, I AM a professional golfer that knows the golf swing and have been for longer that I want to admit. And although drivers aren't the only clubs that I produce, I also change faces in the way that I do business and produce clubs.

When a person calls me up, whether they're a pro or amateur, and says..."I want a driver that's 45 inches long; 460 cc in volume; 9.5 degrees of loft with a 1 degree closed face and a high center of gravity; a shaft that flexes out at 262 cpm's and a cut torque of 3.2 degrees; an overall weight not to exceed 11.5 oz. and a swingweight of D-4; and a grip that's 1/16" over;
THAT IS A "CUSTOM" Club and I am in my CUSTOM DRIVERMAKER MODE.

We can actually go beyond that. Sometimes pro's and amateurs will say, "I need a new driver but I have no idea what would work best". What do we do"? At that point we go a driving range where I can watch his swing and evaluate that first. Then we have him hit all kinds of different clubs with a myriad of spec differences to see what works best. At that point I have to evaluate what I have in front of me and formulate the correct factors into it to make the ultimate weapon for that individual. There aren't a whole hell of a lot of individuals out there that can do that...especailly the vast majority of "CUSTOM" club maker douche bags in their little shops slapping glue.

That is a FITTED CUSTOM CLUB and again, I'm in the CUSTOM clubmaker role.

As of last year, for the last 3 years, I produced the longest hitting driver that held the record at the world finals of the RE/MAX long driving championship that's shown on ESPN and held annually which measured over 415 yards, and I've been able to get a couple of guys to qualify for that highest level of competition.

At other times, I do exactly what Jack Madden did. I play mad scientist and experiment with different shafts, head combinations, etc. and make a whole bunch of new and unique "SPEC" clubs. They're made to certain specifications with the assumption that I'll eventually find the GOLFER who will FIT that particular club and like it. Which means, it is NOT a CUSTOM club, it's a SPEC club that just happened to work for someone.

If I find a particular combination that seems to work for a vast majority of golfers, for whatever reason, I'll mass produce them and sell the club to whoever wants to buy it. That's when I'm in my PRODUCTION company face and that's all those clubs are. But there's not a damn thing wrong with them because they're built with the same care, workmanship, quality, and know-how behind them as a custom or a fitted custom.

But I go through all kinds of phases from custom, to fitted custom, to spec, to production because that's just business and I always strive for ZERO defects in everything produced. So the word "CUSTOM" doesn't mean shit. The only thing that's important is HOW GOOD AND EXPERIENCED IS THE MAN BEHIND THE PRODUCT. All in all I've found major production companies in golf and pool to put out an excellent superior product. You can find it there, or in "CUSTOM", but the word in itself is meaningless if the person behind it really isn't a pro.

In the golf world, I have nothing but the highest praise for the big name production companies. They put out great products. They're for the masses, but they're starting to all get smarter with fitting programs like the PGA pros receive.

If a customer comes to me and it make him feel good to think that he's coming to a "CUSTOM" club maker, then so be it.
In my case, I don't need an ego boost with the word custom, I'm just a Drivermaker and that's what customers will get. A damn good one though...I must admit.
 

MrLucky

Pool Fanatic!!
Silver Member
very good analysis!

It is the same thing in the home building business ! So many builders like to draw people in using the term CUSTOM builders when in fact all of their homes are spec homes that they have paid an architect to draw up and then they will modify to an limited extent for the buyer! When I go to one of them with my plans drawn by me for myself or a client they quake and shudder ! some of them at least here in GA are so sad they can't even read the specs off the print themselves :confused: but the have the unmitigated audacity to charge premium prices for their homes that they cookie cutter out and then label Custom Built ! :mad:

But as one poster so eloquently stated ..."iCustom is in the eyes of the beholder" ..... :(
 
B

Bruce S. de Lis

Guest
Custom means just as I said, Custom like the Suit, or DRESS SHIRT that is BUILT to Fit you after a MASTER TAILOR measures you every which way they need to.

Remember many years ago a guy from Hong Kong coming to Pasadena CA. He would set up in a Hotel Suite, and the customers would come. You would pick Fabric, Style, Button Type, and in about 6-8 Weeks your New Suit & Shirts arrived.

They always fix, looked great,and were first class. The price was fair, and the quality for price paid was excellent.

Too me that describes the Custom Experience. Option (2) was to go to Sear, Ward, J.C. Pennies, Dormans, etc. Buy an Off The Rack, and let the Tailor try and make it look like it was built to fit you.

NEVER AS GOOD AS TRUE CUSTOM. But they worked, for those unwilling to go Custom.
;)
 
Last edited:
Bruce S. de Lis said:
Remember many years ago a guy from Hong Kong coming to Pasadena CA. & Shits arrived.


Must have been something the guy from Hong Kong brought over with him.
I've had 'EM pretty bad at times....but I've never worn them. Don't think I want to try.... :D
 

Jack Flanagan

P. T. Barnum was right !
Silver Member
drivermaker said:
Must have been something the guy from Hong Kong brought over with him.
I've had 'EM pretty bad at times....but I've never worn them. Don't think I want to try.... :D

LMFAO,,,I needed a good laugh this morning,,,who would have guessed, it would be in this thread,,,thanks !
 
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