What tip radius ?

L

luvndog

Palmer Lover
Silver Member
Masse cue. What tip radius ?

I was watching billiard trick shot videos at metacafe.com and a lot of shots the guy would shoot down on the cue ball, moving it out a foot or two and it would come back and kick a ball in the pocket. Do you need a certain shape on the tip to do this and does a thin shaft do it easier ? I just can't seem to get the hang of it :(
 
Last edited:
what you are referring to is a masse shot it can be done with any cue really but i do believe heavier cues are better there are some trickshot artists on the boards such as jamison neu who can provide more information than i can
 
I have a Schuler masse' cue which is 24.6 oz., 48", and 13mm Triangle medium nickel shaped tip on a euro tapered shaft. (Built like a tank.)

I can do things with this cue I can't with any other cue. Or let's say I would not try these shots with any other cue for fear of breaking the shaft.

Anyway I can shoot almost straight down on the ball, get it to slide forward, then come back. And I'm banging the heck out of it with this shot. Lots of downward force makes the ball "shoot" forward and at the same time gives it a backwards spin. Also doing this on Championship 3030 cloth and new cue ball (shiny surface).

Shuler masse' cue here...
http://schulercue.com/products/accessories.htm
 
I am having a lot of trouble doing the masse shot and I was wondering if my tip was shaped wrong. I just can't get the spin on the ball I need. Maybe all I need is practice, but I wanted to make sure the tip was right first. Practice probably won't work if tip is wrong..
Thanks Billy Bob for the link and info.Before I buy a masse cue, I want to do a lot of practice first. First I'll try my 21 oz cue instead of my 19 oz cue.
This may sound stupid, but is there a tool to give me the correct tip shape. How is the best way to get a nickel radius ? I have something that shapes the tip, just don't know if it the right one to use.
Maybe I need to spend some more time at the pool hall !
Any advice from anyone is greatly appreciated.
 
Maybe this is it

I believe you are trying to learn how to masse in a practical way ie game situation. If you are then I would stick to your normal playing cue maybe get a harder tip like an Everest or a Sniper as an upgrade. The most important thing about this kind of masse is an accurate stroke and at any speed you must keep the stick speed consistant through the cue ball. Remember the angle of the cue combined with the speed of impact is how whitey knows how far to go before turning down the path that the spin is telling him. If this doesn't make sense don't worry doesn't make sense to me either. I have a few more pointers on my websites homepage www.jamisonneu.com but, mostly trial and error is how you will master this shot. I will say the shot you are describing can be made 80% of the time by a truly dedicated student of masse at least on the days your hands aren't bleeding. lol
Jamison
 
JamisonNeu,
Thanks for the help, I'll check out your website this weekend, I'm at work now. I'll be putting in an order also for the shaper. It looks good from here :o)
I have a feeling that practice and the correct tip and follow thru, like you said will be the key.
thanks dana
 
JN,
I am trying to learn the shot for when I need one in a game situation, trick shots can come later.
Lately , I noticed that I haven't been drawing the ball as easily as I used to and the ball has been flying off the table ,I bet it's a improper radius thing? Is the dime radius also good for drawing the ball back ?
 
you are almost always better of NOT (full) masseing in a real game, they are way too inconsistent to be used minus some extremely rare occasions. small curves come up a bit more often, but they are easily done with a normal cue.

as for not being able to draw, look no further than your stroke. draw is possible with just about any cue and any tip that isnt completely flat (and even then its probably still possible), if you are digging under whitey and making it jump, it probably means you are hitting too low, not stroking smoothly, or both.
 
Last edited:
So far as learning masse' shots...

As Jamison said ["mostly trial and error is how you will master this shot"], and that is very true in my case. It took me a lot of trial (months) and a lot of nothing happening! Someone told me it can take 4 years of practicing masse' shots to be any good at them.

I've been playing around with my masse' cue for a couple of years and finally last night I had a shot where the masse' cue came in handy, and I was actually able to make the shot.

Also there are limitations in some rules as to how many different cues you can use. So you may not be allowed to use a playing, break, jump, and masse' cue in the same match.

So far as tip shape for draw with regular cue...

For me being able to draw back a specific distance is the thing I really work at. And this can be critical in some situations. Being able to draw back 6 inches, 1 diamond, 1/2 table, or whatever. I feel that always using the *same* exact tip shape and tip with same surface condition and same chalk applied (always chalk before each shot), allows me to be more consistent with my drawing distances. FYI - I use a Moori Q (hard) dime shaped tip on my playing cue and will lightly sand the tip (with shaper) before a tournament to give it a fresh surface. See shaping tools below.

So far as tip shaping tools...

I use electrical PVC cut in half and 8 inches long, then 220 grit sandpaper cut to size. Following is link which has a picture of my shapers (last picture). I use dime shape for my playing cue and jump cue, quarter shape for my breaking cue, and nickel shape for my masse' cue.

Picture of my PVC shapers (last picture)...
http://www.geocities.com/billybobnospam/pr.html

PVC SIZES...
Dime (1/2" PVC Pipe) [15.00 mm]
Nickel / Penny (3/4" PVC Pipe) [19.75 mm]
Quarter (1" PVC Pipe) [25mm]
Half dollar (1 1/4" PVC Pipe)
Billiard ball (2" PVC Pipe)

U.S. COIN SIZES...
Dime ......................... 18.00mm
Penny ..................... 19.10mm
Nickel ....................... 21.10mm
Quarter ...................... 24.10mm
Half Dollar .................. 30.50mm
 
P.S. Also what has helped me the most with learning masse' shots is to get videos of masse' shots. See what is possible, then try to do the same shot myself. And then you can see the angle they are holding the cue at.

This is a big help. Also notice where they are striking the ball. Note that shots on the video may be on fast cloth with a new cue ball and the shot may not be possible on slow cloth with a worn dull looking cue ball...
 
thanks everyone ! This is a great community ! ! I see the key word is practice practice practice ! I have been watching videos and they make it look sooooooo easy ! and like you said, they have had LOTS of practice. I'm going to check out my tip, cause I have no idea if it's close or not. I'm guessing the best way is to hold a dime(or nickle) up next to it and see if it matches up.. that's the first step :)
 
I have a feeling that I'm going to need new felt ??? My felt is old and slow. From above,,,,I'm thinking that an expert might have trouble doing a massse shot on my table lol..
 
Here is how I did it and not on purpose.

I would agree that most videos are done on nice cloth with polished balls. Some people use silicon spray or armor-all to make the shots easier. The thing is all these things help at that moment but, they also hurt your knowledge of masse and put a huge limit the places you can make these shots. I have said this before and will say it again to properly learn masse or to stroke a ball with spin try finding the worst table and cloth conditions possible. This will decrease the time it takes to learn these shots because you will have to learn exactly how to hit the ball and I don't mean worn out 860 I mean horrible cloth, worn out 860 is still to nice. I am talking 5 yr old cloth that has been flipped over and hung out at the carwash I'm talking busted rails and balls that seem to be older than you. If you learn on this type of field then when you get to the good stuff you acctually think drawing a ball 9 ft is a duck cause it is. To get it done on the trap table you had to learn to stroke one good not just get the good equipment. Make it as tough on yourself as possible in practice so when you get to the game it's a breeze. Like I said in the title this is how I learned and not on purpose. This is the type of tables I got to shoot on growing up. My freind still has the same cloth on his table he had 40 yrs. ago. The good stuff...If you can get it done on this stuff you can get it done anywhere.
Jamison
 
I did it ! !

All right ! I made my first masse shot ! ! !:) :) :)
I re-shaped the tip, with a rough shaper.. Haven't checked for correct radius yet.Yanked out some old green chalk that I think works well and made my shot on the 6th attempt. It was a simple one but a start.
I put the cue in the corner pocket, so I could use the table as support, half way to the side pocket, I put a ball, 1/2 inch from rail, and set a ball at the side pocket.
I elevated the cue to 45 degrees (eric yows web page recommendation) and started hitting the ball on different spots untill I made it ! !
First couple shots the ball went out a ball length and then straight till the far rail, the next shot made a ball in the corner, which i was happy for, but not my objective. After 3 more tries, I got it :)
I think now, it's time to get a ball with red dots so that I can see where I get more spin with different dot placement.
thanks for the help...
 
JamisonNeu said:
I would agree that most videos are done on nice cloth with polished balls. Some people use silicon spray or armor-all to make the shots easier. The thing is all these things help at that moment but, they also hurt your knowledge of masse and put a huge limit the places you can make these shots. I have said this before and will say it again to properly learn masse or to stroke a ball with spin try finding the worst table and cloth conditions possible. This will decrease the time it takes to learn these shots because you will have to learn exactly how to hit the ball and I don't mean worn out 860 I mean horrible cloth, worn out 860 is still to nice. I am talking 5 yr old cloth that has been flipped over and hung out at the carwash I'm talking busted rails and balls that seem to be older than you. If you learn on this type of field then when you get to the good stuff you acctually think drawing a ball 9 ft is a duck cause it is. To get it done on the trap table you had to learn to stroke one good not just get the good equipment. Make it as tough on yourself as possible in practice so when you get to the game it's a breeze. Like I said in the title this is how I learned and not on purpose. This is the type of tables I got to shoot on growing up. My freind still has the same cloth on his table he had 40 yrs. ago. The good stuff...If you can get it done on this stuff you can get it done anywhere.
Jamison
Click to expand...
JN, you posted while I was doing my previous reply... I am following your advice to the letter. lol I have the worst felt in the country ! !lol I haven't replaced it because it is perfect for my grandkids. Me and the 8 yr old shoot a lot together..I don't have to worry about them hurting it..
I just made my first masse shot. I had been trying this morning with a poorly shaped tip and I started to quit when someone said masse might not be made with slow cloth. But I'm not a quitter ! !
So I worked on the tip a couple minutes and then made my shot in just a minute or two. simple shot but a start . now all I need is to make sure my tip is shaped closer to correct and practice...
thanks for your help, it is greatly appreciated :)
 
Tip tool

Wolfbite has a tip shaping tool that I really like. It quickly and easily shapes your tip to the curve of a dime exactly. I shaped the tips on six house cues in less than 15 minutes and some of those tips were really mushroomed and nasty. Check it out.
 
thanks Pawnmon,
I hadn't heard of that website, I'll check it out.
You know, someone ought to do a topic of good billiard links :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top