What to do here?

[Jude Rosenstock]

I'd play a tie-up shot if I was without options against a very good player and I'd look for something other than the 2ball.
What would you tie up besides the 2 ball? What better tie up options do you see from here. That was the whole reason I said to push the 2 around.


Actually, it does work. You can reverse spin on a kick shot. You just shoot it obliquely into the first rail and you won't lose all the spin. Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that at your level (as it appears from the internet anyway) you don't know how to execute reverse kick shots.

And, I'm not sure if you are just busting my chops, playing coy, or if you really think it won't work.

-td

Perhaps you're playing on new cloth, I don't know. All I can say is, the equipment I'm used to playing on will not yield such results. The spin simply won't hold that long especially at the speed needed to yield a legal hit. This "oblique" angle from the OP's position is, IMO, not a viable option and, no offense to you but I firmly believe MY LEVEL was accomplished, in part, by my ability to eliminate such options.

Cheers.

 

[td873]

Perhaps you're playing on new cloth, I don't know. All I can say is, the equipment I'm used to playing on will not yield such results. The spin simply won't hold that long especially at the speed needed to yield a legal hit. This "oblique" angle from the OP's position is, IMO, not a viable option and, no offense to you but I firmly believe MY LEVEL was accomplished, in part, by my ability to eliminate such options.

Cheers.

The point of my post was that this shot is possible, not that it is the right shot for all situations. You say eliminate this as an option, but it sounds like "eliminate since it's not possible." However, this shot WILL work with reverse off 2 rails. You don't need special equipment or a different set up.

And, honestly I mean no offense, but I'm not sure what your ability or LEVEL really is. So perhaps your opinion on the this shot being available is based on the faulty assumption that it is not possible.

In any event, I'm positive you can hit the 1 off 2 rails with reverse from the original position.

Cheers,

-td

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

The point of my post was that this shot is possible, not that it is the right shot for all situations. You say eliminate this as an option, but it sounds like "eliminate since it's not possible." However, this shot WILL work with reverse off 2 rails. You don't need special equipment or a different set up.

And, honestly I mean no offense, but I'm not sure what your ability or LEVEL really is. So perhaps your opinion on the this shot being available is based on the faulty assumption that it is not possible.

In any event, I'm positive you can hit the 1 off 2 rails with reverse from the original position.

Cheers,

-td

In terms of First Shot Value, your shot is simply going to come up low. You do realize your way puts you jacked-up over the 4, correct? That means you're going to have to figure out a way to use left english and not have the cueball masse on you or hop off the rail. For the sake of argument, we can move the 4ball out of the way and I still think it's very challenging but with the 4ball there, I'm sorry but I simply don't see that route happening.

I'll remove the 4ball and give it a try. That's as much ground as I can give. With the 4ball there (and I apologize for being so blunt) I simply cannot imagine it working.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

The point of my post was that this shot is possible, not that it is the right shot for all situations. You say eliminate this as an option, but it sounds like "eliminate since it's not possible." However, this shot WILL work with reverse off 2 rails. You don't need special equipment or a different set up.

And, honestly I mean no offense, but I'm not sure what your ability or LEVEL really is. So perhaps your opinion on the this shot being available is based on the faulty assumption that it is not possible.

In any event, I'm positive you can hit the 1 off 2 rails with reverse from the original position.

Cheers,

-td

I tried it tonight. The only way you're going to get this hit is by hitting it flat. Use left english and you have no chance at hitting this ball. The cueball will flatten and you'll get no english off the second rail. No spin, you should have room for a standard z-route but it's difficult to judge the correct angle when you're so close to the first rail. With the 4ball there, this becomes even more difficult since you're nearly guaranteed to put the cueball in flight since you'll need a decent amount of speed to achieve a legal hit.

Below is my other kick alternative. I'm not suggesting this is the right shot but IMO, it's the only other shot worth considering. Bear in mind, the rails at the room I play in are fairly short and because of the distance to the first rail, I'm hoping the spin from the masse will die down to near null.

In the end, you'd have to talk me out of playing off the point. I'm figuring there is a reasonable chance I'm missing this kick no matter what I do but at least this way, I have a real good chance at pocketing.

CueTable Help

 

[cuetable]

CueTable Help

A, Because the CB is sort of close to the rail and you have to shoot over a ball for the 1 rail kick, I'd walk over to the ghostball spot and find the point to kick the CB full in the face. I will also figure out how much draw to use and how hard I would need to hit it. It's all very sensitive

B, if I don't like plan A, I'd go 3 rail as Supergreenman has suggested...

C, I like Thomas' shot on bumping the 2

We should email this or print this out for 20 pro players. I am curious to hear what they have to say

 

[grindz]

TD, I understand you would play this against "the right opponent" but frankly, you'll get tortured against any good player using this approach. If the person is SO HORRIBLE that they cannot pocket the 1ball and play safe on the 2, why worry about them running out? I'd play a tie-up shot if I was without options against a very good player and I'd look for something other than the 2ball.

Not sure which TD you're talking to :smile: us TD's must think alike :smile:
but I was just offering a different solution from what had been posted. SuperG's 3c hit is a basic hit and should be the first choice for all. It's a basic 3c 'natural' and has many positive results. If I'm playin' a "flyer" who would try the off the point shot though I may just consider my alternative a little more....but the 'natural' would win out. If that was cut off I would tie up the 2 ......cuz one thing I know is "flyers" love to fly, and I like to let em. :smile: ............... I'm just havin' fun with ya here.




This shot simply doesn't work. On the first rail the angle of approach is different than the angle of reflection. Although that's perfectly possible on a pooltable, you can't get it to then reverse the angle on the second rail - not on a kick shot. You'll simply lose too much of the spin.

This is actually a 3c shot too, and isn't all that extraordinary for a 3c player to hit this consistently......not that I could, w/out practice.

td

 

[2rgrbn]

Edit I read back over the post and caught that you can't get between the 2 & 4 so I had to edit. In the examples that have been posted I would lean towards the masse 2 rail or a 3 rail shot up towards the end where the 9 is. The 2 rail side to side kick looks the most probable in regards to making a hit but since you have to kill the cue ball off of the first rail to get short enough to get by the 5 it may be difficult to get a rail after contact. If you can get to the 1 via the rail by the 9 you eliminate most chances of making a good hit and ending up with a leave that allows your opponent to give the 9 a ride. Even if it is possible to kick the ball in the side or jump off of the rail over the 5 and pocket the 1 I doubt that I would try it because you would most likely be hooked on the 2 anyways. If you shoot the tits well enough to make a confident kick that would be a good shot. For me I can jump off of a rail over balls OK but I can't use the tits well enough to shoot this shot confidently. Which makes this a good learning post because it would be handy in this situation.

 

[Snapshot9]

Shot

I like Jude's masse 2 rail shot (and it doesn't look to have to masse much), otherwise the 3 rail shot.

 

[td873]

I tried it tonight. The only way you're going to get this hit is by hitting it flat. Use left english and you have no chance at hitting this ball.

With the 4ball there, this becomes even more difficult since you're nearly guaranteed to put the cueball in flight since you'll need a decent amount of speed to achieve a legal hit.

I'll remove the 4ball and give it a try. That's as much ground as I can give. With the 4ball there (and I apologize for being so blunt) I simply cannot imagine it working.

I tried it a few nights ago, and it works. I'm not sure why it doesn't on your equipment. Maybe you are aiming it wrong, dunno. In fact, I shot it 5 times in a row, hitting the 1 ball every time. Most were legal hits - although I had 1 scratch, and 1 no rail. So if I can hit the 1 ball 5 times in a row (and I'm a hack), I'm sure a top notch player can hit this 2-railer at will. It is more difficult jacked up over the 4, but only slightly so. You can even see remaining left english on th cue ball after contact with the 1, it doesn't all kill off...

AND, FWIW, you can actually hit the 1 ball 1-rail! After I did the 2-railer, I whacked at the 1 railer a few times, and suprisingly, it's a gimme kick. It's just hard to see in the original diagram.

I'm figuring there is a reasonable chance I'm missing this kick no matter what I do but at least this way, I have a real good chance at pocketing.

Based on my results, I put the hit on the 1 ball off 2 rails with reverse at 80%+ for A players. Maybe 90% for A+. Legal hit, maybe a bit less (60%-70%). Off the point, I would guess a 10-20% success rate.

Oh, and since, the 1 railer is a gimme - I'm shooting it first! But if the 5 is in the way, I'm shooting the 2-railer.

-td

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I tried it a few nights ago, and it works. I'm not sure why it doesn't on your equipment. Maybe you are aiming it wrong, dunno. In fact, I shot it 5 times in a row, hitting the 1 ball every time. Most were legal hits - although I had 1 scratch, and 1 no rail. So if I can hit the 1 ball 5 times in a row (and I'm a hack), I'm sure a top notch player can hit this 2-railer at will. It is more difficult jacked up over the 4, but only slightly so.

AND, FWIW, you can actually hit the 1 ball 1-rail! After I did the 2-railer, I whacked at the 1 railer a few times, and suprisingly, it's a gimme kick. It's just hard to see in the original diagram.


Based on my results, I put the hit on the 1 ball off 2 rails with reverse at 80%+ for A players. Maybe 90% for A+. Legal hit, maybe a bit less (60%-70%). Off the point, I would guess a 10-20% success rate.

Oh, and since, the 1 railer is a gimme - I'm shooting it first! But if the 5 is in the way, I'm shooting the 2-railer.

-td

I play on tables with short rails so maybe that's the difference. The percentages you're using might be applicable to your table but definitely not where I play.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I like Jude's masse 2 rail shot (and it doesn't look to have to masse much), otherwise the 3 rail shot.

Yeah, that was my thought process, too. If it required more of a masse, it would probably retain too much spin when it hit the rail. The distance to the first rail on this shot actually works in the shooter's favor .

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[td873]

I play on tables with short rails so maybe that's the difference. The percentages you're using might be applicable to your table but definitely not where I play.

I think I've played where you play - and go there every time I'm in NY. Corner now Amsterdam. I also played at Amsterdam on the East/West before they closed down. And a few of the "other" places. I don't think it's that different. But maybe my memory serves me wrong.

I understand your perspective on the shot and belief it is not possible based on your attempts. But, it's not really as hard as you make it out to be...

And, regardless of the success rate of the other options, THIS shot is possible and not just on one table in Texas.

-td

 

[td873]

I propose you try it off the point 10-15 times. But, you have to put the same effort into it that you did on your shot! I believe you will find that the percentage is much, much, higher than you proposed. To be perfectly honest, I was a little dissapointed that I didn't make it.

Perhaps my point on the point shot has been too subtle (pun intended). In the original diagram the point shot is available. But it won't always be. You should be cognizant of other options that are available. In this situation, the point shot might be the right choice. But if the 1 ball is moved 3" up or 3" down table, what then?

It is a nice "what if" or "show off" shot. But this isn't going to win you games or make you an A player. And I'm guessing that a real pro would shoot the 1 railer first, something else 2nd, something else 3rd, etc. before they shoot a point shot.

-td

 

[Chris_Lynch]

Jude, I hate to say this in a public forum but I bet I could show you how to make that kick with reverse even at ABC. You may have to draw it a little to get it to the opposite rail a little faster but I'll put money on it that you can hit it. Getting a rail may not be a guarantee though.

I need to practice the shots off the point though. I wouldn't take that approach here since I'm not used to shooting it. I would have to consider all of the other options posted I think.

Nice post Neil. Thanks.

 

[2rgrbn]

I tried it a few nights ago, and it works. I'm not sure why it doesn't on your equipment. Maybe you are aiming it wrong, dunno. In fact, I shot it 5 times in a row, hitting the 1 ball every time. Most were legal hits - although I had 1 scratch, and 1 no rail. So if I can hit the 1 ball 5 times in a row (and I'm a hack), I'm sure a top notch player can hit this 2-railer at will. It is more difficult jacked up over the 4, but only slightly so. You can even see remaining left english on th cue ball after contact with the 1, it doesn't all kill off...

AND, FWIW, you can actually hit the 1 ball 1-rail! After I did the 2-railer, I whacked at the 1 railer a few times, and suprisingly, it's a gimme kick. It's just hard to see in the original diagram.


Based on my results, I put the hit on the 1 ball off 2 rails with reverse at 80%+ for A players. Maybe 90% for A+. Legal hit, maybe a bit less (60%-70%). Off the point, I would guess a 10-20% success rate.

Oh, and since, the 1 railer is a gimme - I'm shooting it first! But if the 5 is in the way, I'm shooting the 2-railer.

-td

The problem with a 1 rail kick (assuming you can get by the 5) is this. In order to have any shape on the 2 ball you need to play the 1 pocket speed or real close to it, if you hit it any harder you will probably leave the white ball hooked for the 2 if you hit it pocket speed and miss in any direction it looks likely that you will leave your opponent a real high % shot to start with. If you go with the Masse 2 rail or 3 rail kick (same route) the chances of making the 1 are slight but there is a good chance you will leave him a tough shot.