What's going on with the 3 high 3 low points....

[billiards_watch]

I know you cue makers are suppose to pay attention to detail and I've seen a few '3 highs and 3 lows and the lows never line up and there will be gaps bigger one side than the other. I've notice this on a lot of this from famous makers too.

I like this configuration but always avoid it.

 

[Chopdoc]

I know you cue makers are suppose to pay attention to detail and I've seen a few '3 highs and 3 lows and the lows never line up and there will be gaps bigger one side than the other. I've notice this on a lot of this from famous makers too.

I like this configuration but always avoid it.

Curious.

Pics?

Famous makers?

I recently passed up a custom 3 point with veneers, not 3 high and 3 low. I t was well made but I just didn't like the colors. Ultimately it didn't sell and got pulled from the market. Reflecting on it, I should have bought it, it was a killer price. I think the colors and 3 point design killed it for others too. It was the name that attracted me, a more obscure maker, but talented and known to make excellent cues as a sort of apprentice to a much more well known maker.

I am unfamiliar with the problem you are pointing out. Maybe mostly because I am rarely attracted to look at 3 point or 3 high 3 low cues. The proportions seem off for me in general, unlike the 4/4.

 

[Michael Webb]

I know you cue makers are suppose to pay attention to detail and I've seen a few '3 highs and 3 lows and the lows never line up and there will be gaps bigger one side than the other. I've notice this on a lot of this from famous makers too.

I like this configuration but always avoid it.

If the 3 shorter points don't line up as far as height,
That comes down to centering.
If the gaps are different in between the points,
That comes down to indexing.

 

[Michael Webb]

If the 3 shorter points don't line up as far as height,
That comes down to centering.
If the gaps are different in between the points,
That comes down to indexing.

Centering?
What goes with that??
When the points are cut, i bet they're all the same.
What changed?
The entire set up to join the Forearm to the handle!
If they are not even before the Forearm is joined,
THEN YOU,
Changed the center some how!

 

[billiards_watch]

If the 3 shorter points don't line up as far as height,
That comes down to centering.
If the gaps are different in between the points,
That comes down to indexing.

Thanks

 

[cueman]

Centering?
What goes with that??
When the points are cut, i bet they're all the same.
What changed?
The entire set up to join the Forearm to the handle!
If they are not even before the Forearm is joined,
THEN YOU,
Changed the center some how!

You are dead on with this. And to add to it if the maker joins the forearm to the handle and allows wobble it will affect the shorter points more than the longer points. Another cause to the shorter points having bigger gaps on one side could be setting the router up at a slightly different height when coming back to cut the other three points. So the maker should have a dedicated router or milling machine that the bit or height is never changed in the middle of these operations. And a way to come back to center. Like leaving the alignment driver in the machine until that forearm is complete. I know you know all this but these are just additions for the AZ readers.

 

[Chopdoc]

I think the geometry and mechanics are clear. Thanks.
Maintaining center, and accurate indexing.

He said it's a problem with 3/3 and he's seeing it even in "a lot" of famous maker cues.

I didn't see any explanation specific to the 3/3. Everything offered applies to 4/4 as well.

Is there a particular problem with 3/3 that's so bad even famous makers aren't avoiding it?

I never heard of this. I'm curious.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I think the geometry and mechanics are clear. Thanks.
Maintaining center, and accurate indexing.

He said it's a problem with 3/3 and he's seeing it even in "a lot" of famous maker cues.

I didn't see any explanation specific to the 3/3. Everything offered applies to 4/4 as well.

Is there a particular problem with 3/3 that's so bad even famous makers aren't avoiding it?

I never heard of this. I'm curious.

I've only made one 3/3 cue, and the height difference between the points isn't much, little enough that it would be hard to tell if it is supposed to be 3 high/3 low, or if it was just crap execution on 6high. The only reason I made the 3/3 is because I screwed up on indexing and moved 120deg between the first and second point cuts. I am telling you this because I don't know how other makers do 6 point cues, but mine was cut with a 90deg. bit.

When a 4pt cue is cut with a 90degree bit, the base of the points can be off center and the gap between the points will be constant, though the points will be different widths at the base, which is harder to see. If points for a 3/3 or 6pt cue are cut with a 90deg. bit, the gap will change drastically if the base of the forearm isn't perfectly centered. If a 60deg bit is used, the gap won't change.

I made a quick drawing of this to illustrate, the triangular areas are what would be cut out of each type of cue with a 90degree bit, leaving a perfect cross in a 4pt, but leaving a star shape in the 6 point.

All of this goes out the window if a 60deg. bit is used in the 6pt cue.

Along the same lines, the tips of the points will move further if they are a bit off center with the 6pt, 90deg situation because the base of the point is much shallower out of necessity, so the angle is flatter for points of the same height.

Fortunately I don't really like 3/3 cues...

 

[Chopdoc]

I've only made one 3/3 cue, and the height difference between the points isn't much, little enough that it would be hard to tell if it is supposed to be 3 high/3 low, or if it was just crap execution on 6high. The only reason I made the 3/3 is because I screwed up on indexing and moved 120deg between the first and second point cuts. I am telling you this because I don't know how other makers do 6 point cues, but mine was cut with a 90deg. bit.

When a 4pt cue is cut with a 90degree bit, the base of the points can be off center and the gap between the points will be constant, though the points will be different widths at the base, which is harder to see. If points for a 3/3 or 6pt cue are cut with a 90deg. bit, the gap will change drastically if the base of the forearm isn't perfectly centered. If a 60deg bit is used, the gap won't change.

I made a quick drawing of this to illustrate, the triangular areas are what would be cut out of each type of cue with a 90degree bit, leaving a perfect cross in a 4pt, but leaving a star shape in the 6 point.

View attachment 826759

All of this goes out the window if a 60deg. bit is used in the 6pt cue.

Along the same lines, the tips of the points will move further if they are a bit off center with the 6pt, 90deg situation because the base of the point is much shallower out of necessity, so the angle is flatter for points of the same height.

Fortunately I don't really like 3/3 cues...

Thanks very much!

That leaves me wondering. I own very few 3 point cues, and only because they fit my collection. I own zero 3/3. I don't remember looking at any actually, and I look at a hellua lot of cues.

The poster said it was a problem he sees even with "famous makers". That grabbed my attention. Much of what we value in the work of famous makers is their precision, and attention to detail, in addition to the more qualitative anesthetics and artistry. It's the merger of precision of engineering and artistry of design that elevates the status, among other things. Of course it has to play well.

I just never heard this was any kind of problem from famous makers. 3/3 is unusual, I know I have seen them, but none are memorable for me. They are not radially symmetrical. I like symmetry.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

Thanks very much!

That leaves me wondering. I own very few 3 point cues, and only because they fit my collection. I own zero 3/3. I don't remember looking at any actually, and I look at a hellua lot of cues.

The poster said it was a problem he sees even with "famous makers". That grabbed my attention. Much of what we value in the work of famous makers is their precision, and attention to detail, in addition to the more qualitative anesthetics and artistry. It's the merger of precision of engineering and artistry of design that elevates the status, among other things. Of course it has to play well.

I just never heard this was any kind of problem from famous makers. 3/3 is unusual, I know I have seen them, but none are memorable for me. They are not radially symmetrical. I like symmetry.

I don't put a lot of stock in much that the OP says and agree with you.

That said, the amount of precision required for all the points to be the same height is kinda amazing. If you consider this: My points are about 9.5" long, for ease, lets just say 240mm. I cut the points ~12mm deep. My height-to-depth ratio is 20:1 That means if the cue is off center by 0.0005", the total runout will be 0.001" from one side of the forearm to the other, and the length will be off 0.020". That is working on an organic material that is hygroscopic and sensitive to temperature change.

Personally, I find it amazing to see most cuemakers get as close as they do.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I don't put a lot of stock in much that the OP says and agree with you.

That said, the amount of precision required for all the points to be the same height is kinda amazing. If you consider this: My points are about 9.5" long, for ease, lets just say 240mm. I cut the points ~12mm deep. My height-to-depth ratio is 20:1 That means if the cue is off center by 0.0005", the total runout will be 0.001" from one side of the forearm to the other, and the length will be off 0.020". That is working on an organic material that is hygroscopic and sensitive to temperature change.

Personally, I find it amazing to see most cuemakers get as close as they do.

Then, you do everything you can to get the blank perfect and a wormhole appears as you are turning...

...que sera, sera, the future is not ours to see.

 

[Chopdoc]

I don't put a lot of stock in much that the OP says and agree with you.

That said, the amount of precision required for all the points to be the same height is kinda amazing. If you consider this: My points are about 9.5" long, for ease, lets just say 240mm. I cut the points ~12mm deep. My height-to-depth ratio is 20:1 That means if the cue is off center by 0.0005", the total runout will be 0.001" from one side of the forearm to the other, and the length will be off 0.020". That is working on an organic material that is hygroscopic and sensitive to temperature change.

Personally, I find it amazing to see most cuemakers get as close as they do.

I do understand. Tiny fractions of a degree result in large differences over a span of a few inches. I do appreciate that. And the inconsistent qualities of organic materials contributes to the difficulties of precision machining. Getting the precision below the limits of human perception is challenging for sure. Wouldn't it be nice if it was all brass or soft aluminum, relatively easy to machine, and relatively consistent. You machine and put together dissimilar materials that nature never intended to join, let alone the man made materials that intervene.

As for the OP, I have often wondered if he even plays pool, let alone has touched a pool cue. Though he does own a watch.

Thanks so much for your detailed explanations.

 

[Chopdoc]

Then, you do everything you can to get the blank perfect and a wormhole appears as you are turning...View attachment 826768

...que sera, sera, the future is not ours to see.

That would require a drink.

I found the worm.

 

[Chopdoc]

Then, you do everything you can to get the blank perfect and a wormhole appears as you are turning...View attachment 826768

...que sera, sera, the future is not ours to see.

Reminds me of a woman I knew.

The longer I knew her the more I realized how many worms had penetrated.

Yeah...

Turn down past there and you maybe have a pencil....or another worm hole.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

That would require a drink.

I found the worm.

The funny thing about this is that I already intended to finish the cue and have dubbed it, 'Mezcal'. Honestly, I kinda like it. I didn't want it there, I wouldn't have chosen it, but it chose me, and that's kinda beautiful in it's own way. Maybe I'll never sell the cue, maybe someone will love it. I put the pin in yesterday and hit with it, it feels great.

 

[Chopdoc]

The funny thing about this is that I already intended to finish the cue and have dubbed it, 'Mezcal'. Honestly, I kinda like it. I didn't want it there, I wouldn't have chosen it, but it chose me, and that's kinda beautiful in it's own way. Maybe I'll never sell the cue, maybe someone will love it. I put the pin in yesterday and hit with it, it feels great.

LOL! I love it!

We thought of the same thing!

That's a classic. The cue earned a name. It has to be right. It has to be meant to be. It was not just made, it was born.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

LOL! I love it!

We thought of the same thing!

That's a classic. The cue earned a name. It has to be right. It has to be meant to be. It was not just made, it was born.

Yeah, definitely nothing wrong with it structurally, filled with epoxy (already done in the photo) it looks interesting, I'm 100% okay with it.

 

[Chopdoc]

Yeah, definitely nothing wrong with it structurally, filled with epoxy (already done in the photo) it looks interesting, I'm 100% okay with it.

I think it's cool. My second thought was Scarface. LOL!

Chicks dig scars. Don't tell different, you'll pop my bubble.

Show the rest of it when you have a chance, if you like.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

I think it's cool. My second thought was Scarface. LOL!

Chicks dig scars. Don't tell different, you'll pop my bubble.

Show the rest of it when you have a chance, if you like.

While it was made in Montana, it isn't flashy enough for Tony Montana. It's a pretty understated cue, bocote and south american chestnut.

 

[Chopdoc]

While it was made in Montana, it isn't flashy enough for Tony Montana. It's a pretty understated cue, bocote and south american chestnut.View attachment 826772View attachment 826773View attachment 826774

Understated. Yes.

"Just wood." Simple but majestic. Solemn almost. Let the grain speak, and little else.

And of course the worm hole.

I grew up in a log cabin built of chestnut. Long story. American chestnut was unavailable due to blight of course, so the logs were imported from Europe. Original log home, not one of those modern kits. In the woods of Pennsylvania.

I like it.

What kind of pin?