What's the call...8 ball Valley rules...

8

8onthebreak

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In league match tonight, a player from the opposing team broke, pocketed a stripe on the break, ...then shot a stripe in and made it...but the cue ball bumped the 8 in afterwards, resulting in a game loss.

The obvious was a 15-2 ...but I argued that he never actually claimed stripes,...since it was open after the break, and since he fouled when he knocked the eight ball in,,,they argued that he made the stripe then knocked the eight in, so he was stripes. My theory, is that knocking the eight in was a game ending foul...and none the less, a foul. If it was our guys turn back to the table, he would have had open table...so he should be able to choose his suit right? So why wouldn't he choose stripes for the 17-0 win?

What's the ruling?
 
i dont play in that league but i dont see how he could claim stripes since the 8 went in on the same turn as his first shot. if he would have scratched wouldnt it still be open?
 
I don't know about Valley Rules but in Tap and BCA if he made the ball in the pocket he called without scratching then it would count. The 8 ball is a game ending foul, but not a foul on the pocketed ball. In my interpretation only a scratch or pocketing the wrong ball or the right ball in the wrong pocket would end up with zero balls pocketed.

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15- 2 correct. doesnt matter at the end of the game you count the balls left on the table thats your score. This is the way our valley rules are. Hope this helps
 
10 - 0

VNEA rules say it would be a 10-0. The opponent takes the lowest score available. The shot when he try's to designate is a foul, so it would not count.
 
league director

It really doesn't matter what our opinion is, what did you league director say the ruling is?
 
He has strips because he legally pocketed it. The foul happened after the strip dropped. The score should be 10-2
 
kildegirl said:
He has strips because he legally pocketed it. The foul happened after the strip dropped. The score should be 10-2
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It doesn't matter whether the 8 went in before or after the stripe.The whole shot itself is a foul, and you can't designate on a foul.
 
kildegirl said:
He has strips because he legally pocketed it. The foul happened after the strip dropped. The score should be 10-2
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I never understood these "timing" arguments. If I am shooting the 8 ball to win the game, the 8 ball drops, but then I scratch ... well the 8 dropped before the cue ball did, so I already won the game, right? NOPE! The entire shot is a foul.
 
I cannot comment to the specifics of your league rules - but in mine there are 2 fouls: cue ball fouls and game ending fouls. Cue ball fouls are scratching, contacting the wrong ball first, jumping the cue off the table, etc. Game ending fouls are putting the 8 out of turn, putting the 8 in the wrong pocket, and committing a cue ball foul while pocketing the 8 ball. A game ending foul is not a cue ball foul. Therefore in your example, the person putting the 8 out of order gets the 2 points as he did not commit a cue ball foul to negate his taking of stripes, but loses the game for committing a game ending foul.
This comes up in our league as you have the option to pull the 8 ball and spot it if you choose, but if a cue ball foul was not committed (as in your case) you wouldn't get ball in hand and would have to shoot the cue ball from where it sits.
 
As others have said, the whole shot is a foul... you determine a foul once all the dust has settled and the balls stop moving.

There's no "legal shot first, but then foul later". The entire shot is illegal.

As much as possible, the rules are designed to avoid scenarios where someone has to get out his instant replay camera and say "ok, but which event happened first". In this case it either happened or it didn't. The shot was illegal, no group was chosen, the breaker should not be credited with anything.
 
CreeDo said:
The shot was illegal, no group was chosen, the breaker should not be credited with anything.
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Correct... timing isn't part of calls in 8 ball... ever

i.e. Would the call be different if he was thin cutting in the first stripe.... and it slowly went in the called pocket, but the cue ball quickly knocked the 8 in before the strip dropped?

17-0 is the score, since if he had simply made the strip and then fouled in a non-game ending way, then the incoming player would have had the chance to run the 5 stripes for a 17.
 
I don't think is called a foul! He illegally pocketed the 8 ball and results in loss of game, all ball pocketed before count.
 
He does not get credit for the stripes because he didn't establish groups. This is one of those situations that some people insist on saying "yeah, he fouled and lost the game, but he should get some points." Why? He didn't legally establish groups, period.

How about this: he makes a stripe on the break, shoots in a stripe but scratches. His opponent can take stripes. Is the breaker going to say "Hey, you can't take stripes because I made one after the break." Yeah, but you scratched, so stripes aren't yours.
 
Wow!!! Split reaction just as I thought would be

To me, if the shooter didn't complete a legal shot on stripes...claiming the suit, then opponent gets to choose suit-table is still open at the end of the game, winner should get preference of suit since it would be his turn at table.
We didn't call the league operator since after a 3 min argument, the other captain conceded that no legal shot occurred, so we took the 17-0

This is a good one though, I could see a fight resulting easily from this scenario with two bullheaded teams, lol
 
kanecalgary said:
VNEA rules say it would be a 10-0. The opponent takes the lowest score available. The shot when he try's to designate is a foul, so it would not count.
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This is the correct ruling. Exact same thing happened in a league match of mine last week. I got a 10-0 win. (realy the ohter guy got a 10-0 loss!)
 
As the previous poster said, there are different types of fouls. 8 out of turn is not a cue ball foul therefore a legal shot was completed. Comparing a scratch to an 8 out of turn is apples and oranges. They are different fouls with different outcomes.

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8onthebreak said:
I could see a fight resulting easily from this scenario with two bullheaded teams
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You got that right! Consider this scenario:

The breaker needs 2 points to win. On the break, he makes 2 solids and 1 stripe. He shoots in a stripe, but also pockets the 8. Does he win? No, the game score is 10-0 because groups haven't been established.

There will always be those people that insist the breaker should win. In their minds, since 2 solids and 2 stripes have been pocketed, the breaker would have ended up with at least 2 points that game. Yes, IF groups had been established.

If someone complains that this isn't fair, just remind them that pool is inherently unfair because in every single game of pool someone wins and someone loses. If pool was fair, every game would end in a tie.
 
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