Whats the ruling? Non-ball return tables only

K

kingwang

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
On tables with traditional pockets (no ball return), I found that its not hard to be able to shoot the cue ball in a pocket and have it bounce out at a consistent angle. This might seem like a stupid trick, but it can be used as a desperation shot (I've used it in a game before).

Now for my questions:

1. Is that a legal shot for the cue ball to be shot into the pocket and bounced back out? Usually object balls that are pocketed and bounce back out are not counted as pocketed.

2. Is it legal to move balls from other pockets into a specific pocket to allow this trick to work? Usually its allowed to redistribute balls from a pocket that is too full, so is the reverse legal?

I guess these questions are kinda dumb, but I'm just really curious what everybody else thinks about this.
 
If the cue ball goes in the pocket and comes back out it is not a foul. You don't get credit for an object ball under the same circumstances so that stands to reason that you wouldn't be penalized for the CB.

I would guess that if you purposely put balls in a pocket to fill it up so you don't scratch it would be a foul, I mean c'mon, you're basically cheating at that point.
MULLY
 
mullyman said:
I would guess that if you purposely put balls in a pocket to fill it up so you don't scratch it would be a foul, I mean c'mon, you're basically cheating at that point.
MULLY
Click to expand...

It's a fair question. I have heard that it is a foul, but I'm not sure where it lands in the rules. I think it's unsportsmanlike conduct.

With that said, I wonder how if it would still be a foul if you neglected to clear an overflowing pocket (whether intentionally or by absence of mind) and it kept the cue ball on the table.
 
what kinda table is this. All the local pool halls have drop pockets and i cant think of one table that u can do this on "consistently".

What manufacturer makes the table your talking about.
 
I would think that doing it intentionally would be the same as placing a piece of chalk on the rail as a point of reference for a kick shot...very unsportsmanlike and should be a foul. IMO.

Southpaw
 
TXsouthpaw said:
what kinda table is this. All the local pool halls have drop pockets and i cant think of one table that u can do this on "consistently".

What manufacturer makes the table your talking about.
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That's what I was thinking. I can't even get the cue ball to jump out of a pocket consistently...much less control the angle where it goes. (I can, however, get my object ball to rattle out of the jaws on a regular basis, but only when I am trying to make it!!:eek: )
Steve
 
The shot you're referring to is probably where the object ball is near the side pocket and the cue ball a foot away or so at an angle where it would be an automatic scratch with a normal stroke.

The player jacks up on the cue and, making the ball in the corner pocket bounces the cue ball of the rim of the back of the side pocket.

I've seen the shot made in tournaments on both types of tables and it is never called a foul.
 
The rules on this are clear. When everything stops moving, if the cue ball is still on the table, it is not a foul. If it is off the table, it is a foul. Doesn't matter if you tried to do it or not. It's the same as if the cue ball jumps up on the rails of the table and falls back onto the slate. Always entertaining when that happens, also...:)
 
From the WPA rules...

8.3 Ball Pocketed
A ball is pocketed if it comes to rest in a pocket below the playing surface or enters the ball return system. A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.
If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself. See 1.7 Balls Settling for other details. During that five second period, the referee should ensure that no other shot is taken. An object ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the playing surface is not a pocketed ball. If the cue ball contacts an already pocketed ball, the cue ball will be considered pocketed whether it rebounds from the pocket or not. The referee will remove pocketed object balls from full or nearly full pockets, but it is the shooter?s responsibility to see that this duty is performed.
 
Vinnie said:
From the WPA rules...

8.3 Ball Pocketed
A ball is pocketed if it comes to rest in a pocket below the playing surface or enters the ball return system. A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.
If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself. See 1.7 Balls Settling for other details. During that five second period, the referee should ensure that no other shot is taken. An object ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the playing surface is not a pocketed ball. If the cue ball contacts an already pocketed ball, the cue ball will be considered pocketed whether it rebounds from the pocket or not. The referee will remove pocketed object balls from full or nearly full pockets, but it is the shooter?s responsibility to see that this duty is performed.
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It always amazes me that there are several opinions given (usually wrong) before somebody posts the rule that's a click away on the internet (you know, the same internet this forum is on).

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules

Isn't there a FAQ or a sticky thread where these could be handy?

pj
chgo
 
kingwang said:
On tables with traditional pockets (no ball return), I found that its not hard to be able to shoot the cue ball in a pocket and have it bounce out at a consistent angle. This might seem like a stupid trick, but it can be used as a desperation shot (I've used it in a game before).

Now for my questions:

1. Is that a legal shot for the cue ball to be shot into the pocket and bounced back out? Usually object balls that are pocketed and bounce back out are not counted as pocketed.

2. Is it legal to move balls from other pockets into a specific pocket to allow this trick to work? Usually its allowed to redistribute balls from a pocket that is too full, so is the reverse legal?

I guess these questions are kinda dumb, but I'm just really curious what everybody else thinks about this.
Click to expand...


What kinda table are you playing on?
 
A really crappy 7-footer in my rec room...but hey I get free table time so w/e. It has no distinguishing marks of any kind.

This is the shot I'm talking about:

CueTable Help




If you fill up that top corner pocket then it comes out towards the side pocket pretty consistently.
 
Vinnie said:
From the WPA rules...

8.3 Ball Pocketed
A ball is pocketed if it comes to rest in a pocket below the playing surface or enters the ball return system. A ball near the brink of a pocket partly supported by another ball is considered pocketed if removal of the supporting ball would cause the ball to fall into the pocket.
If a ball stops near the edge of a pocket, and remains apparently motionless for five seconds, it is not considered pocketed if it later falls into the pocket by itself. See 1.7 Balls Settling for other details. During that five second period, the referee should ensure that no other shot is taken. An object ball that rebounds from a pocket back onto the playing surface is not a pocketed ball. If the cue ball contacts an already pocketed ball, the cue ball will be considered pocketed whether it rebounds from the pocket or not. The referee will remove pocketed object balls from full or nearly full pockets, but it is the shooter?s responsibility to see that this duty is performed.
Click to expand...

This only applies if there is a ball in the pocket and the cue-ball hits it. I have had balls hit the back of the leather pocket dead center, and bounce right back to the table (lost a game or 2 like that when the 9-ball did that). They never went down and "climbed" back out. Note the specific wording "if the cuball contacts an already pocketed ball" not "if the cueball goes in a pocket and back out".
 
kingwang said:
A really crappy 7-footer in my rec room...but hey I get free table time so w/e. It has no distinguishing marks of any kind.

This is the shot I'm talking about:

CueTable Help




If you fill up that top corner pocket then it comes out towards the side pocket pretty consistently.
Click to expand...

The way you just described it "if you fill up the pocket", that is a foul. If it just bounced off the back and out, it's not a foul (from all the rules that I can find on the matter).
 
Definitely a foul, its unsportsmanlike and you're essentially taking advantage of the drop pocket system to come up with this shot. I'd have a problem with you doing it in a match even if it wasn't listed in the rules / no ref was present.
 
hang-the-9 said:
This only applies if there is a ball in the pocket and the cue-ball hits it. I have had balls hit the back of the leather pocket dead center, and bounce right back to the table (lost a game or 2 like that when the 9-ball did that). They never went down and "climbed" back out. Note the specific wording "if the cuball contacts an already pocketed ball" not "if the cueball goes in a pocket and back out".
Click to expand...


Interesting point because I now recall playing in a tournament where they specifically said that if a ball bounces back out of an EMPTY pocket, then it goes back down. The reason was because of a flaw in the table design. I forget what kind of tables they are. They are at the Island Casino in Tri-citys' WA.
 
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