When is the joint pin/insert installed?

iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
At what stage is the thread in the butt, and the insert in the shaft installed?

If the threaded portion of the joint is installed early on, or at least before the final turning, you could hold the shaft/butt using the thread. Wouldn't this guarantee concentricity of the joint with the shaft/butt?

The other option would be to install the threaded section after the final turning. This would require centering the shaft/butt on both of its ends using two 4 jaw (or adjust-tru) chucks and then installing the thread.

Questions:
Are there other methods besides the two above? Which one do you guys prefer? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each method?

Thanks.
 
iusedtoberich said:
At what stage is the thread in the butt, and the insert in the shaft installed?

If the threaded portion of the joint is installed early on, or at least before the final turning, you could hold the shaft/butt using the thread. Wouldn't this guarantee concentricity of the joint with the shaft/butt?

The other option would be to install the threaded section after the final turning. This would require centering the shaft/butt on both of its ends using two 4 jaw (or adjust-tru) chucks and then installing the thread.

Questions:
Are there other methods besides the two above? Which one do you guys prefer? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each method?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I install pins and inserts before the last 2 cut-downs. My pins are manufactured with centering holes and I use mandrels for my shafts during the final cut-down stages as I find this the best way to keep everything "pin-centered". It also helps avoid unnecessary hassles for customers who order extra shafts for my cues.

Edwin Reyes
 
bandido said:
I install pins and inserts before the last 2 cut-downs. My pins are manufactured with centering holes and I use mandrels for my shafts during the final cut-down stages as I find this the best way to keep everything "pin-centered". It also helps avoid unnecessary hassles for customers who order extra shafts for my cues.

Edwin Reyes
Click to expand...
That's the best way imo.
Some cuemakers insert the pin early so they can mill their points concentric to the pin. I have no idea if it's necessary.
 
pins

iusedtoberich said:
At what stage is the thread in the butt, and the insert in the shaft installed?

If the threaded portion of the joint is installed early on, or at least before the final turning, you could hold the shaft/butt using the thread. Wouldn't this guarantee concentricity of the joint with the shaft/butt?

The other option would be to install the threaded section after the final turning. This would require centering the shaft/butt on both of its ends using two 4 jaw (or adjust-tru) chucks and then installing the thread.

Questions:
Are there other methods besides the two above? Which one do you guys prefer? What are the advantages and disadvantages of each method?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

I do mine a little differantly than Edwin.

I make all my cuts on both the shaft and butt, and then Install the pin.

For the butt, after all sizing has been done, I re-center drill, then drill a hole, then bore the hole to the proper size. Then grind the threads. [ some cuemakers tap there threads].The shaft is done the same way. I do not use inserts. Mine is wood to wood.

To keep things centered, is really pretty easy. First I made many bushings to fit differant locations on shafts and or butts.

The bushings were made on the machine i use to center drill, drill, and bore and grind threads. By using the same machine, everything is and was machined on the same lathe, and falls to center.

By using a center drilled hole in the end of the pin could cause trouble down line. If the pin is not centered perfectly, and has even the slightest run out, [ meaning the pin has a little wobble to it ] now when you use the hole for turning your last cut, the cue is not square to the pin. Being out on the end of a pin for turning, is to far away from the cues face.

This will cause you to re-face the cues face and not be completely on center. I think it's best to turn first for all cuts, and then install the pin and or inserts.
I make my last cut [before the pins installed] about.004 over size. This leaves me just a little for hand sanding. I do have mandrels for sanding.

blud
 
Blud, how exactly do you use the bushings? I can see having two bushings that match the diameter and taper of the shaft/butt on each end of the lathe spindle where you could mount a chuck, but how could you use bushings in the middle section of the shaft/butt. This section would be inside of the lathe spindle, where you have no control of their location or tightness.

What happens when you get a customer who wants a special taper? Do you make new bushings to accomodate him?

What significance does machining the bushings on the same lathe have? If you held them while machining using a chuck or a collet, and you machined the inner bore and the outer surface in the same setup, it shouldn't matter what lathe you used. Once you tear down the machining setup, the bushings should be equally concentric on any lathe. Unless you somehow machined the bushings while they were INSIDE of the spindle where they would be while holding a shaft/butt.

I was actually thinking of making jaws for my chucks that pivot. This way they could match any taper without the need for tapered bushings. Of course, you would need two chucks supporting the shaft/butt for this to work. This seems like it would be especially beneficial on repair work, where every cue is different. Have you made or heard of a chuck like this?
 
iusedtoberich said:
Blud, how exactly do you use the bushings? I can see having two bushings that match the diameter and taper of the shaft/butt on each end of the lathe spindle where you could mount a chuck, but how could you use bushings in the middle section of the shaft/butt. This section would be inside of the lathe spindle, where you have no control of their location or tightness.

What happens when you get a customer who wants a special taper? Do you make new bushings to accomodate him?

What significance does machining the bushings on the same lathe have? If you held them while machining using a chuck or a collet, and you machined the inner bore and the outer surface in the same setup, it shouldn't matter what lathe you used. Once you tear down the machining setup, the bushings should be equally concentric on any lathe. Unless you somehow machined the bushings while they were INSIDE of the spindle where they would be while holding a shaft/butt.

I was actually thinking of making jaws for my chucks that pivot. This way they could match any taper without the need for tapered bushings. Of course, you would need two chucks supporting the shaft/butt for this to work. This seems like it would be especially beneficial on repair work, where every cue is different. Have you made or heard of a chuck like this?
Click to expand...
You can still make a bushing/collet that will fit inside the spindle bore. If the spindle bore is 1 3/8, you can make it at that size with a taper hole and you can cut a slot or two there.
I would guess, Blud chucks up the butt, with bushing inside the bore and/or in the chuck, indicate the collar of the butt to make sure it has near zero runout, drill/bore then grind the threads.
Blud, what do you mean SOME cuemakers tap their hole. I would guess almost ALL cuemakers tap their holes. And they wonder why their cues' stud rattle later on. :D
 
bushings

Joseph Cues said:
You can still make a bushing/collet that will fit inside the spindle bore. If the spindle bore is 1 3/8, you can make it at that size with a taper hole and you can cut a slot or two there.
I would guess, Blud chucks up the butt, with bushing inside the bore and/or in the chuck, indicate the collar of the butt to make sure it has near zero runout, drill/bore then grind the threads.
Blud, what do you mean SOME cuemakers tap their hole. I would guess almost ALL cuemakers tap their holes. And they wonder why their cues' stud rattle later on. :D
Click to expand...

Joesph, I have placed my bushings in another lathe that they were not made on, some run true and some do not. So I build a set for each machine.

I do have a lathe with a 6 jaw adjust- a- chuck. It's got a centering device on the out board end. When I received this machine I never turned it on, but did tear it down, sent it to a grind shop in houston and had the inside bored and ground perfect to the outside.

I also have 2 other lathes with collets.
For these two, I have an adjustable attached collar on the left [outside] of the spindle tube. I check it for true several times per week. Have not had to change either one for over 3 years. I built a real good sound system. I slip a bushing into the outside collar and one in the collet, and they are centered at that time. I have about 40 differant sized bushings. No need to worry about the middle of the shaft, because you chucked up [in a bushing] on the end your working on and about 24" back your holding the other end. If the shaft or cue has a wobble in it, don't need to work on it anyway.

I know of only a few cuemakers who grind threads. [ this in my opinion, is the correct way to make threads].The rest are just keeping there finger crossed that nothing goes wrong, or either don't care.
blud
 
more bushings

iusedtoberich said:
Blud, how exactly do you use the bushings? I can see having two bushings that match the diameter and taper of the shaft/butt on each end of the lathe spindle where you could mount a chuck, but how could you use bushings in the middle section of the shaft/butt. This section would be inside of the lathe spindle, where you have no control of their location or tightness.

What happens when you get a customer who wants a special taper? Do you make new bushings to accomodate him?

What significance does machining the bushings on the same lathe have? If you held them while machining using a chuck or a collet, and you machined the inner bore and the outer surface in the same setup, it shouldn't matter what lathe you used. Once you tear down the machining setup, the bushings should be equally concentric on any lathe. Unless you somehow machined the bushings while they were INSIDE of the spindle where they would be while holding a shaft/butt.

I was actually thinking of making jaws for my chucks that pivot. This way they could match any taper without the need for tapered bushings. Of course, you would need two chucks supporting the shaft/butt for this to work. This seems like it would be especially beneficial on repair work, where every cue is different. Have you made or heard of a chuck like this?
Click to expand...


Hi rich,

I never, never let the jaws of my lahte touch the cue and or shaft. The jaws could leave it with jaw marks, and the jaws could very easily, not keep it on center.

It's best to use some bushings made on your lathe.

No two lathe's are alike. So, build the bushings on the machine your going to use.

The middle of the cue or shaft will be just fine if it's straight from the start. Don't worry about that middle. If it's got a wobble, shit can it. move on to the next project.....

Shafts that are not on center,
If you get a repair job that is not centered, use an adjust-a-chuck, or shimms to align it to the center of the shaft. Paper shimms work fine, in a fix.......

When machining my cues, I either have the cue between centers or have it in bushings. The bushings run so smooth, you can check it with a mike and it's got no run out. A trained eye can see if there's a problem, anyway....Both ends when using bushings, should run smooth as silk...

When I do use my collet lathe's, I use the collet to clamp down on the end I am machineing, and use a bushing on the other end.

blud
 
Dumb question, but then again I'm not a machinest. I know what a collet is, but what do you mean by a bushing?

This is pretty good info, thanks to all,
Zim
 
A chuck or a collet can only be used to hold straight (non-tapered) parts. A bushing in our context is a collar that slips around the tapered object (shaft or butt) and then the chuck or collet clamps down on the bushing, which subsequently clamps down on the butt/shaft.

What makes this work is the inside diameter of the bushing has a taper to match the outside of the part to hold, while the outside diameter of the bushing is straight (non-tapered) so that the chuck or collet can hold it firmly. This allows the cue to be held firmly in the lathe without maring the wood and without the cue slipping.

Nick
 
statement

iusedtoberich said:
A chuck or a collet can only be used to hold straight (non-tapered) parts. A bushing in our context is a collar that slips around the tapered object (shaft or butt) and then the chuck or collet clamps down on the bushing, which subsequently clamps down on the butt/shaft.

What makes this work is the inside diameter of the bushing has a taper to match the outside of the part to hold, while the outside diameter of the bushing is straight (non-tapered) so that the chuck or collet can hold it firmly. This allows the cue to be held firmly in the lathe without maring the wood and without the cue slipping.

Nick
Click to expand...

Hi Nick, sounds like I might of said all that, at one time or another. I also have some bushings that have no inside taper. They are just straight for about 1/4", and then stepped out for clearance.

I have another bushing that is 10" long with a stepped taper inside. meaning, the bushing has a taper that is 1/4" long on each end. This way, while boring and grinding threads, it turns very smooth. If the taper was full lenght, it would not fit perfectly. So I just relived the inside 9-1/2" by about .020 or so. Machine one end and flip the bushing around and machine the other end. Hanger guys, just a hanger.
blud
 
Blud, do you split your bushings lengthwise? I have tried both split and non-split on the shafts I've gotten for replacement of insert/wooden thread. I have had a few shafts slip on me. This mostly happened when I was threading with a big tap (3/8-10 or 7/16-14). I know you grind your threads, but otherwise, do you have any slippage problems when using bushings? What material do you use to make them? I use whatever plastic I have laying around, usually polypropylene.

Thanks,

Nick
 
Grinding Tool

blud said:
Hi rich,

I never, never let the jaws of my lahte touch the cue and or shaft. The jaws could leave it with jaw marks, and the jaws could very easily, not keep it on center.

It's best to use some bushings made on your lathe.

No two lathe's are alike. So, build the bushings on the machine your going to use.

The middle of the cue or shaft will be just fine if it's straight from the start. Don't worry about that middle. If it's got a wobble, shit can it. move on to the next project.....

Shafts that are not on center,
If you get a repair job that is not centered, use an adjust-a-chuck, or shimms to align it to the center of the shaft. Paper shimms work fine, in a fix.......

When machining my cues, I either have the cue between centers or have it in bushings. The bushings run so smooth, you can check it with a mike and it's got no run out. A trained eye can see if there's a problem, anyway....Both ends when using bushings, should run smooth as silk...

When I do use my collet lathe's, I use the collet to clamp down on the end I am machineing, and use a bushing on the other end.

blud
Click to expand...


I'd like to be able to buy one of the tools used for grinding which I assume is a HSS rod with a 60 degree tip braised onto the end. Anyone know of a place to buy one of these??? Also wondering what Blud charges for a set of mandrels??? ( I believe you mentioned you make these for cuemakers in a previous post.)
Thanks,
Mike Pancerny
 
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