When using english how far off centre do you usually hit? in general not extreme shot

troyroy78

troyroy78

I can average 2 ball's :)
Silver Member
I was recently watching some very good players play and i noticed that when they hit off center of the cueball they actually tend to stay quite close to the center.

Is this usually the case? i have a sneaky feeling that because i was not coached from when i started to play, i actually hit too far off center when using english.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

Is it true that if you have a better stroke you can stay closer to the center and get the same amount of action, inturn making cueball squirt less of an issue? is this true or am i just overthinking:angry:



Thanks



Roy
 
It depends on why you are using the english. The two main reasons for using english are:

a) To provide "gearing" to counteract the effects of collision induced throw
b) To get a specific action of the cueball off of a rail.

In case (a), the amount of english to counteract throw is about 1 mm for every 5 degrees of cut angle. So a 10 degree cut would require 2mm offset for gearing english, and a 30 degree cut, 6mm of english.

Case (b) is more complex and situation dependent.Furthermore, sidespin is often combined with draw or follow. I would say that experience is the best teacher.

For most recreational players, the less english used, the better off you will be.

Disclaimer: I am not an instructor.
 
Dead Crab said:
In case (a), the amount of english to counteract throw is about 1 mm for every 5 degrees of cut angle. So a 10 degree cut would require 2mm offset for gearing english, and a 30 degree cut, 6mm of english.


Disclaimer: I am not an instructor.
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I'm confused. The fuller the hit on the object ball, the more CIT will alter the path of the OB. So a thin cut angle, say 60 degrees, results in less throw than a smaller angle like 15 degrees which requires a fuller hit on the ob. So why do you need more spin to offset throw on a thinner hit?

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
I'm confused. The fuller the hit on the object ball, the more CIT will alter the path of the OB. So a thin cut angle, say 60 degrees, results in less throw than a smaller angle like 15 degrees which requires a fuller hit on the ob. So why do you need more spin to offset throw on a thinner hit?

Steve
Click to expand...


Check diagram 2 here for gearing english for various cut angle:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/jan07.pdf

My approximation of 1 mm of outside english for every 5 degrees of cut isn't exact, but it holds up pretty well for most cut shots.
 
pooltchr said:
I'm confused. The fuller the hit on the object ball, the more CIT will alter the path of the OB. So a thin cut angle, say 60 degrees, results in less throw than a smaller angle like 15 degrees which requires a fuller hit on the ob. So why do you need more spin to offset throw on a thinner hit?

Steve
Click to expand...

Steve,

I think your confusion is due to you having the findings reversed. "The amount of throw increases with cut angle" (Re: page 106 in The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards).

Roger
 
If you are accelerating through the cue ball properly only 1 tip of sidespin is ever needed no matter how much you need to juice the cb. Stroking a cue ball was described to me by a top pro this way. Pretend you are playing catch with a small child and you are standing 10 feet away. You need to throw the ball underhanded with enough velocity to reach the child but with a high enough arc so you won't injure the child as it catches the ball. This acceleration with a cue stick is applied in the same manner. Start moving the stroke forward slowly increasing the speed until you reach the velocity needed to move the cb where you need to get it.
 
Thanks guys for the advise, it highlighted that i hit to far of center when trying to get action.

I will practice hitting closer to center at 1 tip rather than 2 tips of English. This is probably a reason why my game has seemed to drop.

I will go back to basics and implement the KISS theory (Keep It Simple Stupid) rather than trying to get too fancy.

Thanks for the help:thumbup:

Darth, i really like the explanation you gave, thanks, i will work on it, it really makes sense. I recently brought the whole DVD set from Jimmy Reid, that guy is great i really enjoy his stuff. I even signed up to his diamond club, he is such a great resource for pool, i wish him all the best.




Roy
 
I try to stay out of these instructional threads but I always read about how you're only supposed to stay mega-close to the center of the CB and how all the elite players never use more than a tip and it's just bad info.

I've never seen a pro of any caliber stay at the center of the CB while running out - it's ridiculous. For instructional purposes it makes sense, of course. But while playing at the highest level - it just doesn't happen.

Stand behind the Filipinos for a few hours - they spin the living shit out of the CB and kill the CB from the oddest angles. Watch SVB or Earl - they're always hitting shots LOADED with english (and it's not loaded with 1 tip).

How far off center do you hit? As close to the center while still being able to get to where you're going. Sometimes, that means the extreme (far from center).

I'm no instructor, but it might be a good idea for people to practice shooting shots loaded-up with inside/outside and shoot them until it's second nature. If you shun english your entire life, you'll never learn how to use it nor will you reach the pinnacle of your ability.

It's like telling a golfer to always swing light and make sure you hit it straight....bullshit...Swing as hard as you can and keep doing it until you learn to hit it straight while swinging hard....otherwise, you better get used to hitting 40 yards behind those who can.
 
Neil said:
Spidey, I agree with you for the most part. But I want to emphasize that part where you stated 'as close to the center as possible, but far enough out to get to where you need to go'. (not an exact quote) That is the key. Sometimes you do have to go farther than one tip out. (sorry Darth, disagree with you there) The problem arises in that way too many people think that you have to get way out there to get any english, and you don't. You just have to stroke it good.
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I've been a competitive player for over 45 years and had several runs over 100 balls in 14.1 tournaments and a high run of 128 when I was in my 20's. I've put together my share of 3,4, and 5 packs playing 9 and 10 ball on tables with tight pockets against quality opponents, all without using much more than 1 tip of spin. I can get just about anywhere on the table with center ball. It's all in how the stroke is applied to the particular shot. Granted, if you are shooting the cb alone, you have to hit further out on the cb to get it to take a deeper angle but I am talking about CONTACT INDUCED SPIN. As the cb with 1 tip of spin on it with the proper stroke applied, contacts the stationary object ball, the spin on the cb magnifies a ton depending on the angle, how clean or dirty the balls are, and how well you execute the stroke. Once in a while, I find it necessary to juice the cb, but only at a very slow speed when I have to duck under an interfering ball near a rail. If you are ever in southeast Florida, pm me and I'll be more than glad to give you a demo. Heck, maybe we can get together and make a dvd.:D
 
If the OB and CB are far away and dead straight in and you need to draw back for another ball (maybe all the way back to the short rail), you're not going to use 1 tip of english unless you stroke at 124 mph.

I think we're all saying the same thing, maybe.

Darth - you're right to some degree and I can move the CB around with a tip of english; however, I also stroke very firmly compared to other players-- maybe you do too? Even when I play 14.1, I pretty much fire everything in at warp speed and stun the ball around the table.

In 9ball, you're going to whip the CB around - you have to. Of course you want to stay close to the center-- as we all strive to. However, some times you just can't (or you shouldn't).

Dave
 
.

Some of the great players rarely get out of line. :mad: As a result they don't need to juice the ball. They make it look simple.... the key is keeping the right angle.:banghead:

Disclaimer: For futher help seek a professional instructor.:cool:
 
Apocalypse2012 said:
Some of the great players rarely get out of line. :mad: As a result they don't need to juice the ball. They make it look simple.... the key is keeping the right angle.:banghead:

Disclaimer: For futher help seek a professional instructor.:cool:
Click to expand...

Eddie Charlton once said you rarely need to use side if you always get the right angle.
 
SpiderWebComm said:
I try to stay out of these instructional threads but I always read about how you're only supposed to stay mega-close to the center of the CB and how all the elite players never use more than a tip and it's just bad info.

I've never seen a pro of any caliber stay at the center of the CB while running out - it's ridiculous. For instructional purposes it makes sense, of course. But while playing at the highest level - it just doesn't happen.

Stand behind the Filipinos for a few hours - they spin the living shit out of the CB and kill the CB from the oddest angles. Watch SVB or Earl - they're always hitting shots LOADED with english (and it's not loaded with 1 tip).

How far off center do you hit? As close to the center while still being able to get to where you're going. Sometimes, that means the extreme (far from center).

I'm no instructor, but it might be a good idea for people to practice shooting shots loaded-up with inside/outside and shoot them until it's second nature. If you shun english your entire life, you'll never learn how to use it nor will you reach the pinnacle of your ability.

It's like telling a golfer to always swing light and make sure you hit it straight....bullshit...Swing as hard as you can and keep doing it until you learn to hit it straight while swinging hard....otherwise, you better get used to hitting 40 yards behind those who can.
Click to expand...

I have to agree!

Try setting up this shot. Position your cue ball on the spot located near the headstring.

Now, freeze an object ball on the dead center of the end rail...obviously they are now in a straight line from one another. Now....cut that object ball into the left or right pocket. When I'm in stroke and familiar with the table I can make this 7 out of 10 times (there is no magic to it).....if you never need more than one tip of english to get the spin you want - I will bet anyone that they aren't cutting that ball 1 out of 10 times using that minimal amount of english. You have to LOAD UP with extreme english and digg in to accomplish that shot.

I think as a beginner learning to control the rock with no more than a tip's worth of english is sound advice, but as you progress you have to learn what the varying amount of English' can do. I'm still learning every time I play!
 
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