Who is a Professional Billiard Player?
- Thread starter cardiac kid
- Start date
DaveK said:
Hi Dave,
If my memory serves me correctly, the winner of the Valley Forge "Pro" 9 Ball event got $5000. The winner of the "Amateur" 9 Ball event also got $5000. That was in 2003. I'm not sure of 2004's payouts. BCA in Vegas paid $7000 plus next years airfare to the "Amateur" Men's Master's 8 Ball winner. The "Pro" 9 Ball event paid $15,000 to the winner. I believe Second was $7500.
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DaveK said:
Nope. Both are pros in golf and neither can play an amateur tournament. Of course pool has no rules, but IMO if you charge for lessons you are a pro for all purposes and should not be allowed to play in any amateur events IMO. (an opinion few probably agree with, but it's my opinion.;-)) Of course, as I said there are no true amateur events in pool anyway, so oh well.
Pool is going to be a disorganized mish mash of rules and policies depending on the day and the promoter. It isn't going to be consistent or clear cut anytime soon. And I don't lose any sleep over it, but likewise I don't expect it to make any sense. Because it doesn't and it can't unless there is one organization regulating "amateur" pool.
Who? Who? Who?
Nearly everyone who has posted concerning this thread has had a negative follow on question or comment. Please go back to reply #28 from KBP and you'll see at least we are trying to form a workable solution to this issue. When I replyed here to this question, I gave a basic rundown of what we do on our "soon to be expanded" NATIONAL AMATEUR 9-BALL TOUR. Out of the 40 something replys so far, there was 1 response here to what we are trying to do positive for amateur pool. I am concerned that there are really very few people out here that truely even care. Maybe the lead-in question should have been, "Who CARES who is a Professional Billiard Player?", as long as I dont draw him or her in this weekends event. Now, if anyone can find a way to put a positive spin on this subject, let's here it. Otherwise, let's just go and throw some darts or bowl a few frames.
Sorry, occasionally I get really ****** off when we try so hard in certain areas for the betterment of this game, just to get nagatively criticized or thought to be doing just the opposite. Pool, though highly competitive in a tournament venue, is still supposed to be FUN!!!!!
Where have all the good times gone.
Tim Higgins
KBP
Nearly everyone who has posted concerning this thread has had a negative follow on question or comment. Please go back to reply #28 from KBP and you'll see at least we are trying to form a workable solution to this issue. When I replyed here to this question, I gave a basic rundown of what we do on our "soon to be expanded" NATIONAL AMATEUR 9-BALL TOUR. Out of the 40 something replys so far, there was 1 response here to what we are trying to do positive for amateur pool. I am concerned that there are really very few people out here that truely even care. Maybe the lead-in question should have been, "Who CARES who is a Professional Billiard Player?", as long as I dont draw him or her in this weekends event. Now, if anyone can find a way to put a positive spin on this subject, let's here it. Otherwise, let's just go and throw some darts or bowl a few frames.
Sorry, occasionally I get really ****** off when we try so hard in certain areas for the betterment of this game, just to get nagatively criticized or thought to be doing just the opposite. Pool, though highly competitive in a tournament venue, is still supposed to be FUN!!!!!
Where have all the good times gone.
Tim Higgins
KBP
KBP said:
Who has criticized you? I looked back and didn't find it. If you took my posts as criticism you misread them. (As said, I think your tournaments are probably not amateur tournaments because I am assuming you pay cash prizes. I recognize nobody agrees with me. I also don't think I am an amateur player because I have won cash prizes in pool. But there is no real definition in pool and I am a lousy player and wouldn't meet anybody's current working definition of a pro.) I hope any events you promote work out and are good for the game. Overall though, pool is a mess. That doesn't mean I hope it won't get better. It just means "amateur" pool is not organized or coherent. If you make it better, great.
As for me, I answer your question, "I don't care who is a pro and I DON'T care who I match up with because I don't play for a living and have enough heart to be willing to play anybody who will pay an entry fee." So I am consistent at least.
cardiac kid said:
Thanks for the link. I wonder if AZB's own Kerry Impson is aware that she is listed as a Grand Master?
JPB said:Who has criticized you? I looked back and didn't find it. If you took my posts as criticism you misread them. (As said, I think your tournaments are probably not amateur tournaments because I am assuming you pay cash prizes. I recognize nobody agrees with me. I also don't think I am an amateur player because I have won cash prizes in pool. But there is no real definition in pool and I am a lousy player and wouldn't meet anybody's current working definition of a pro.) I hope any events you promote work out and are good for the game. Overall though, pool is a mess. That doesn't mean I hope it won't get better. It just means "amateur" pool is not organized or coherent. If you make it better, great.
As for me, I answer your question, "I don't care who is a pro and I DON'T care who I match up with because I don't play for a living and have enough heart to be willing to play anybody who will pay an entry fee." So I am consistent at least.
Hello, I am Kay the tour owner and I feel that just because we pay cash prizes does not mean we are not amateur. Local tournaments pay cash prizes too so I guess by your standard there are pros too. Just because you win some money does not make you a pro. We feel that the events we have are good for the game. Example: Several years ago one of our players ( I will not use names without permission) played for 3 years on events we had. When he first started he didn't even finiah in the money. He now cannot play in our events. His statement to me was that he got better because of the events he played in and the different people he came in contact with on the table. Different people play different ways. And you do criticize us by saying that we are not amateur just because we pay out money. The players pay their money to play and I feel that they should get something back. We do try very hard to have a good event for the people that don't want to play a pro but want to get better or have fun. In Florida we have as little as 47 players and as many as 80 show up which makes for a very good field for someone who loves the game. We are as organized as we can be with what we have to work with. We have gotten several good comments on how well we do and we do make mistakes but we are all human (even us amateurs).
Kay
CEO
KBP said:
You are taking things personally when they simply are not. It is not criticism to say your tournaments aren't amateur because you pay out prize money. It is my opinion of what being an amateur SHOULD entail. In several posts in this thread and others I have said that and admitted not many pool players agree with me. You can even argue that my opinion might be bad for the game if it were the prevailing view. But it simply isn't criticism of you. I play in tournamnets that pay cash prizes too. Might have even won cash a time or two as bad as I play. And that means I am not an amateur in the true sense of the word. That is why I said there really is no amateur pool. IMO amateur tournaments should have inexpensive entries that cover some costs and pay for trophies. The prize for winning should be limited to a trophy. That is what amateurism entails in my view. I recognize that such local events might not be popular, and that is why tournaments offer cash prizes. So yes, I believe that anybody who has played in one of your events is, if not a pro, then someone without amateur status. In my ideal world I would not be considered an amateur either. I know that my view isn't the popular one.
If I were instantly the pool dictator of the universe I would do the folllowing. I would have a regulatory body for amateur pool. Professional pool, being professional, can't be regulated the same way. For amateurs I would have a drop dead deadline in the future. Say January 1, 2006. After that date, I would say that anybody who enters an event that pays any cash prize without first irrevocably waiving any right to any prize money is not an amateur. Simple. And that is what amateurism is about IMO. I disagree with you when you say players who pay money to enter should get something back, namely a cash prize. Amateurism is about playing the game for the enjoyment of the game and the competition, not remuneration. Those looking for something back in the form of prize money, rather than intangibles like enjoyment, trophies, pride, etc..., are not amateurs. In pool, because there really aren't tournaments that don't offer cash prizes, players who don't really care about the money enter for competition and fun. That is what I do. And it is fine the tournaments are there. But I disagree with the premise they are really amateur tournaments, that's all. Don't take it personally. Pool isn't organized the way I would do it. I don't take that personally.
Also note that I said I thought golf's rules of amateur status were too loose. They are the strictest around and I think they have been liberalized too much and the spirit of amateurism is fading from the game.
Before thinking I am too nutty, just think about golf for a while. People wonder why pro golfers make so much. Well, there are a host of reasons, but it is clear that without a tremendous amateur base the pro game would not have gotten off the ground and would not thrive today. And amateurs in golf don't play for prize money. There is a clear line between pro and amateur (as much as it pains me to see players playing for huge merchandise prizes or Michelle Wie wearing a Titleist visor as an amateur. Hmmmmm, wonder who she'll sign with in a few years....) Food for thought.
KBP said:
Hi Kay,
I guess you didn't read the post I made to Tim @ KPB a couple of days ago. Please go to www.playbca.com. Choose master player list. Then choose either Men's or Women's Masters. I realize its not the absolute definitive list. It is a very good place to start. Most of those Grand Master players are from the mid-west. You probably have some folks in the Carolina's and Georgia you could add. Please contact either Eydie/Bob Romano or Mark Griffin. The Romano's e-mail is eydie@pooltournaments.net. Mark Griffin can be reached at markg@playbca.com. Athough I may never attend one of your events, thanks for the effort. As players, our job seems to be to complain about everything in the game we love. Especially when someone tries to improve it for the vast majority. I have no problem playing the folks on the list. There are however, a majority who would prefer to not enter an event that allows them to play. Thats bad for everyone.
JPB,
If this world was perfect, your definition of amateur pool would be fine. This however is the real world. I understand that the major sanctioning bodies are not offering the events in Vegas or Reno without some hope of making a profit for the sanctioning body. Oops, did I say profit. Bad boy! Anyway,
Offering prize money to players in the hope they will travel half way across the country or world (at their expense) to play in an event without it, is suicide for the sanctioners. I would guess that if the BCA, VNEA or APA stopped holding major events in Vegas, their membership would drop! We love to take the chance on winning money at pool. Going to Vegas or Reno is a treat or vacation for most. Regulating about two hundred individuals both men and women seems to be a much simpler job. Wouldn't you agree to that? My problem is only about one hundred and fifty are on the pro list. The way to add that extra fifty to the list is so rediculous, it is useless!
If this world was perfect, your definition of amateur pool would be fine. This however is the real world. I understand that the major sanctioning bodies are not offering the events in Vegas or Reno without some hope of making a profit for the sanctioning body. Oops, did I say profit. Bad boy! Anyway,
Offering prize money to players in the hope they will travel half way across the country or world (at their expense) to play in an event without it, is suicide for the sanctioners. I would guess that if the BCA, VNEA or APA stopped holding major events in Vegas, their membership would drop! We love to take the chance on winning money at pool. Going to Vegas or Reno is a treat or vacation for most. Regulating about two hundred individuals both men and women seems to be a much simpler job. Wouldn't you agree to that? My problem is only about one hundred and fifty are on the pro list. The way to add that extra fifty to the list is so rediculous, it is useless!
I can't believe this thread has lasted this long.
Someone will always be bitching about the pro lists until they can win "amateur tournaments" without having to play anyone of superior skill.
Don't wish it was easier to win.
Concentrate on making yourself better, and forget about lists of people you are scared to play.
But then I've had very little sleep, and I may just be cranky.
Someone will always be bitching about the pro lists until they can win "amateur tournaments" without having to play anyone of superior skill.
Don't wish it was easier to win.
Concentrate on making yourself better, and forget about lists of people you are scared to play.
But then I've had very little sleep, and I may just be cranky.
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cardiac kid said:
I know my view won't be accepted. As I said though, please think about golf. Many amateurs travel all kinds of places to play for no prize money and spend a lot of money doing it. But you make a good point, who would spend money to go to las vegas and have to play bar pool with league players WITHOUT prize money?
If I were the pool dictator we'd have some amateur straight pool tourns on 5X10's. He he he.
BazookaJoe said:
Joe,
Thats fine for me. I play top ranked players virtually every weekend somewhere. Frankly, I don't give a shit! There are players below my "skill" level that will not compete in a tournament because of the "pro" entries. They feel strongly that they can't win. They stay home and thats bad for the game. There must be a simple, effective way to keep tournaments advertised as "Amateurs Only", amateurs only. That is the only point of why I started this thread and why it has lasted so long. There are lots of people who feel as I do!
amateur vs pro
Prior to the US Open, Gabe Owen was placed in the newly formed Grand Master division by the BCA Pool League. Prior to that Gabe was allowed to play in the Master division by the former BCA. Immediately after winning the US Open , Gabe was removed from the Grand Master division and is no longer eligible to participate in BCA Pool League amateur events. Women ranked in the top 32 (WPBA) are not eligible to play in the Grand Master division. Women ranked below that are eligible to play in the Grand Master division. Men ranked in the top 64 are not eligible (Billiard Digest Power Index, AZBilliards rankings, UPA, and other available player rankings). Players may be moved out of the Grand Master division based on recent professional tournament results. Granted, defining the distinction between an amateur and a professional is not an exact science, but the BCA Pool League, by forming the new Grand Master division is trying to shield the true amateur player from the elite players. Bill S
cardiac kid said:
Prior to the US Open, Gabe Owen was placed in the newly formed Grand Master division by the BCA Pool League. Prior to that Gabe was allowed to play in the Master division by the former BCA. Immediately after winning the US Open , Gabe was removed from the Grand Master division and is no longer eligible to participate in BCA Pool League amateur events. Women ranked in the top 32 (WPBA) are not eligible to play in the Grand Master division. Women ranked below that are eligible to play in the Grand Master division. Men ranked in the top 64 are not eligible (Billiard Digest Power Index, AZBilliards rankings, UPA, and other available player rankings). Players may be moved out of the Grand Master division based on recent professional tournament results. Granted, defining the distinction between an amateur and a professional is not an exact science, but the BCA Pool League, by forming the new Grand Master division is trying to shield the true amateur player from the elite players. Bill S
Hi Bill S,
Thanks for the post. You essentially re-wrote the information available at the "new" and "old" BCA websites. I appreciate you helping to spreading the word. I looked again a moment ago and found several new names have been added to the Grand Master's list. Someone is listening! The ACS website continues to use the "old" BCA Master's lists.
Thanks for the post. You essentially re-wrote the information available at the "new" and "old" BCA websites. I appreciate you helping to spreading the word. I looked again a moment ago and found several new names have been added to the Grand Master's list. Someone is listening! The ACS website continues to use the "old" BCA Master's lists.