Why do they still have the stupid unfair break rule at World Cup?

[hang-the-9]

Thank you. You just made my point. The discussion wasn't about the rule being just or unjust. It was about fairness. And its completely fair as long as I applies to everyone.
I suggest if you don't like the rule, then don't enter the WCOP.

Or a much better solution would be not to use that rule since it's clearly not working correctly.

The rule is not fair, it's unfair to everyone.

If they decided to tax you by 90% of your salary but did it everyone is that a "fair" law? Or if it was decided that if you had two arms they would cut one off, that's "fair" too since it applies to everyone?

The rule is "equally applied" but not fair. Here are some synynoms of fair: just, equitable, honest, upright, honorable, trustworthy. Well it's clearly not just. It's equitable I guess since both sided have a chance to be equally screwed LOL It's for sure not an upright or honest rule since it distorts what it aims to do which is prevent soft breaks. But it also acts to prevent hard breaks from rewarding the player.

If we want to play "split the hair of definitions" it may be a fair rule. But then again we'd be calling Hitler a fair leader, after all he wanted to kill anyone not of his race equally. Yea he wanted to kill all the Jews but he also had a thing for blacks and Poles, I guess that's fair. There was also that separate but equal school and store thing during segregation, that was fair no? I mean sure you get divided by the color of your skin but you have "equal" schools. That turned out to be fair right? Fair does not exactly mean "a 50-50" split. It also means something that is the right thing to do. I can throw shit on you, and also on your friend, was that a "fair" thing to do since both of you got shitted? Or maybe the unfair thing was that I threw the shit to begin with. Hm.. I may have a new signature to ad to my profile. Hang the 9, fair shitter.

 

[markgw]

The are replaying the hill hill rack, I did not even realize India got screwed on that one as well. Hill Hill make a ball and the other team takes over! A 3rd ball was slowly heading towards the line but the cueball kicked it out.

Everyone that fell victim to this break rule should line up in front of whoever thought of it and continues to use it, and kick him in the nuts. One year of this, sure lets experiment, but it clearly sucks as a rule so why keep it? How can the players not talk to them about this rule, I am sure NO-ONE likes it. Too bad pool is so out of the hands of the players that they gladly go to lick the balls of whoever offers them a bone no matter what.

Races to 7 are brutal :wink:

 

[terryhanna]

I dont really like these breaks rules but at least it puts the luck factor back in the break
shot and luck has always been a part of 9 ball
with the use of the magic rack pattern racking soft breaks rack mechanics the break shot over time
has become some sort of gaff game in 9 ball good to see some luck still in that shot
but i think the use of a break box and 9 on the spot is the best rules imo

 

[shinobi]

Nothing wrong with that. But I've been using the Break Speed app for a while now, and it has the tendency to have errors. When an error is suspected, you have to open the waveform and make adjustments. This takes approximately 40 to 45 seconds. Then there would be a new tread about how matches are being held up because of inferior technology. Technology is NOT always the answer. Maybe change the break requirement to 3 balls have to cross mid table instead of the head string?

Here's a proposal that I *highly doubt* would ever happen, but would be fun. For the sake of my example, Team A is breaking, Team B are not.

Break speed is measured, with an app, with a gun, however... but the players do not see the speed.

If Team "B" believes it was a soft break, they can challenge. Then, the speed is consulted.

If Team "B" loses the challenge (ie: it was not a soft break) then Team "A" can not be challenged anymore. Effectively, they can break at any speed they want for the remainder of that match.

If Team "A" wins the challenge, then the punishment should be severe. Ball in hand, or perhaps even an automatic win of that game for Team "A". And, they retain the right to challenge again.

This should be a fair system provided the minimum break speed is not too high. And the punishment is strong enough in both directions to keep the breaker and the opponent honest.

While I don't expect the system I mentioned would ever be adopted, I echo the fact that I absolutely hate to see someone crush the rack, make a couple balls, and then have to give up the table because of the existing, stupid rule.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Or a much better solution would be not to use that rule since it's clearly not working correctly.

The rule is not fair, it's unfair to everyone.

If they decided to tax you by 90% of your salary but did it everyone is that a "fair" law? Or if it was decided that if you had two arms they would cut one off, that's "fair" too since it applies to everyone?

The rule is "equally applied" but not fair. Here are some synynoms of fair: just, equitable, honest, upright, honorable, trustworthy. Well it's clearly not just. It's equitable I guess since both sided have a chance to be equally screwed LOL It's for sure not an upright or honest rule since it distorts what it aims to do which is prevent soft breaks. But it also acts to prevent hard breaks from rewarding the player.

If we want to play "split the hair of definitions" it may be a fair rule. But then again we'd be calling Hitler a fair leader, after all he wanted to kill anyone not of his race equally. Yea he wanted to kill all the Jews but he also had a thing for blacks and Poles, I guess that's fair.

Christ...you sure do take things to the extreme, don't you? Compairing cutting someone's arm off or Hitler to a game of pool? You have made it clear how you view the subject. What it comes down to is it steps on your "traditional" view of pool. Well its not the 1950's anymore. There are hundreds of tournaments around the world. Most differ in the way they are played and managed. It adds variety to what we love. Just another way to skin a cat....that's all.

 

[buckshotshoey]

I would like to add a sports analogy here. In professional football (NFL) the kickoff was moved so it pretty eliminated the kickoff return. Is it fair? Yes. Do I like it....no. I think it takes away from the game. Kick off returns have always been part of the game. Why even have a kick off return team on the field? Giant waste of time. Ust put the ball on the 20 yard line and be done with it (which I think is coming by the way). Its an unjust rule designed for pussies. But you won't find me on a football forum bit#ching about it. Its just a game. Not that big of a deal. At least pool has enough variety to make all of us happy.

 

[King T]

You got that right!

India are getting absolutely screwed by this rule. It's a joke.

This is BAD for the game!!!!!!!!

 

[SouthernDraw]

Start the Game with a Legal Hit!

I hate the rule also for the reasons described above, but also as a traditionalist it bothers me to see a longstanding basic rule of pool like "make a ball keep shooting" thrown in the dustbin. I also hate watching 9 ball where they soft break. Bores me to tears. The break speed app does seem a basic way to enforce no soft breaks.

Also one small counter argument. Most of these guys aren't breaking full out. They're cut breaking to make the one in the side. If the reared back and crashed them hitting the 1 full they would probably never get an illegal break, but with the 9 on the spot they are weighing that against not making a ball.

I think this is right. The reason that India broke so well, is that they were breaking a little softer than others and running close to that fine line of not getting enough balls across the line. Sure, it wasn't as soft as Corey's soft break. But all the other teams were breaking a bit harder and the 1ball was landing a hair before the side pocket.

That said, I'm not a fan of the rule either. I really don't think that you should start the game on an illegal hit. The ball should be re-spotted and the other team breaks. But, I am sure that makes terrible viewing for average non-pool playing viewer and slows the pace too much for tv time restraints.

 

[SouthernDraw]

More Viewer-Friendly

I dont really like these breaks rules but at least it puts the luck factor back in the break
shot and luck has always been a part of 9 ball
with the use of the magic rack pattern racking soft breaks rack mechanics the break shot over time
has become some sort of gaff game in 9 ball good to see some luck still in that shot
but i think the use of a break box and 9 on the spot is the best rules imo

I do think this makes it more viewer-friendly.

 

[one stroke]

I think this is right. The reason that India broke so well, is that they were breaking a little softer than others and running close to that fine line of not getting enough balls across the line. Sure, it wasn't as soft as Corey's soft break. But all the other teams were breaking a bit harder and the 1ball was landing a hair before the side pocket.

That said, I'm not a fan of the rule either. I really don't think that you should start the game on an illegal hit. The ball should be re-spotted and the other team breaks. But, I am sure that makes terrible viewing for average non-pool playing viewer and slows the pace too much for tv time restraints.

I'm not a fan of the rule and if they let soft breaking in we might be talking Corey is the best breaker instead of Shane ,, but it is the rule

1

 

[JB Cases]

Radar gun - anything less than 20mph for a professional is an illegal break, problem solved. Have one in the practice room as well so every single player knows how hard they have to hit the balls.

 

[hang-the-9]

Christ...you sure do take things to the extreme, don't you? Compairing cutting someone's arm off or Hitler to a game of pool? You have made it clear how you view the subject. What it comes down to is it steps on your "traditional" view of pool. Well its not the 1950's anymore. There are hundreds of tournaments around the world. Most differ in the way they are played and managed. It adds variety to what we love. Just another way to skin a cat....that's all.

I was pointing out what "fair" meant, when did I compare anything to a pool game? You said "fair" is when something is applied equally to all. I said it meant more than just that and provided examples.

 

[peteypooldude]

Radar gun - anything less than 20mph for a professional is an illegal break, problem solved. Have one in the practice room as well so every single player knows how hard they have to hit the balls.

+1. We were discussing this very thing tonight

 

[robsnotes4u]

I remember in a tournament seeing Kelly Fisher make either 3 or 4 balls on the break yet it was called illegal, What a joke!

If she made 3 it is legal by these rules

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts

 

[AtLarge]

They had a ball drop, a ball go past the line and one hang up. Then everyone paused while they looked at the replay (I think that's what they were doing) and England took over. ...

Perhaps we are talking about different games. The one I was talking about is Game #8, with the score at 5-2 India, and Raj Hundal breaking. He made the 6-ball in the side, the 7-ball in a foot-rail corner, hung the 3-ball in the other foot-rail corner, and no ball reached the head string (4-ball about an inch or two short). Illegal break (unfortunately).

 

[TheLoneSilencer]

If she made 3 it is legal by these rules

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not their own facts

I watched the match & she was cited for an illegal break & she could not believe it. The refs sent her to the chair & her opponent made the rest of the balls.

Anyway......

 

[SouthernDraw]

I'm not a fan of the rule and if they let soft breaking in we might be talking Corey is the best breaker instead of Shane ,, but it is the rule

1

It wasn't all that long ago that Shane brutalized Corey in 9-ball on TAR while Corey kept soft breaking. Of course, Shane was breaking much like India did yesterday...not soft but hard enough to make a ball and keep the other balls spread out. IIRC they were playing alternating breaks and each player was getting virtually the same layout each time they would break, but Corey's layouts were more clustered because he was hitting them so soft.

 

[Paul Schofield]

I'm pissed off at the rule and I'm not even playing!

Idiots! Argh!

So you are all worked up over players slamming the rack and having to get lucky by having 3 balls break the head-string. You know that it does require some luck. It all makes good sense to me and are congruent with current rules. A player has to get lucky and slop a ball in on the break and make 3 balls break the head string. If there is one big luck factor in the break, there is no harm in adding another one.

Here is yet another one to add: Flip a coin to see who breaks before every rack. Let's just make the break a total crap shoot.

or

Figure out what is skilled and reward that.

If you think that pocketing a ball is more skill than luck, then let's just put a call-shot requirement on the break and while we are at it, call the 3 balls that are going to break the head-string.

It just goes on and on and on.................and yes, I am being cynical.

 

[JB Cases]

So you are all worked up over players slamming the rack and having to get lucky by having 3 balls break the head-string. You know that it does require some luck. It all makes good sense to me and are congruent with current rules. A player has to get lucky and slop a ball in on the break and make 3 balls break the head string. If there is one big luck factor in the break, there is no harm in adding another one.

Here is yet another one to add: Flip a coin to see who breaks before every rack. Let's just make the break a total crap shoot.

or

Figure out what is skilled and reward that.

If you think that pocketing a ball is more skill than luck, then let's just put a call-shot requirement on the break and while we are at it, call the 3 balls that are going to break the head-string.

It just goes on and on and on.................and yes, I am being cynical.

Paul,

Have you proposed your rules to the WPA, BCA and Matchroom? I think it might be worth it to lobby them. Obviously there is a problem because it seems like every other tournament has to make special rules about the break.

 

[SakuJack]

Honestly, I don't mind the three balls potted or past the headstring rule.

Sometimes a player hits it good and gets some unlucky kisses... but it's pretty rarely the case from what I have seen.

Somebody made the point earlier that players almost never hit the balls at full speed, and are generally flirting with the chance of an illegal break based on how softly they hit the balls, and that's completely correct, IMO.

With India's final break of the match, Amar hit the balls hard but he caught the one-ball way too thin (as you can see by how far it went up the table), which was ultimately his undoing. He didn't get unlucky. He just hit the break bad and paid for it.

The illegal break rules aren't perfect, but they're a more practical solution than a radar gun or break speed app, and it seems nobody wants to see soft breaking... so there's not too many options left.

I don't mind soft breaks, but I don't mind illegal break rules like this one either. One thing I do know is that pool players/fans will complain about anything.