Why does anybody stakehorse?

breakup

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Somebody straighten me out. There is something about pool I have never understood. Why does anybody stakehorse? If somebody is an action junkie I guess that is a reason in itself but from a gambling perspective I just don’t see the percentage even when everything is on the square (dumping/savers aside). If you lose, you lose. If you win you only get 50% – 70% (or whatever your arrangement is) of your bet back. Roulette with ten greens would give better odds if you just bet on black or red. Sooo… why does anybody stakehorse?
 
some people have the money, some people have the talent. Not everyone has both.
 
I think some people just want to be close to the action. They get their kicks off of it. Makes them feel like they have some clout in the pool world. Obviously greed is one reason, and that can fuel anyones fire, but I think some people do it just for their ego. IMO
 
breakup said:
Somebody straighten me out. There is something about pool I have never understood. Why does anybody stakehorse? If somebody is an action junkie I guess that is a reason in itself but from a gambling perspective I just don’t see the percentage even when everything is on the square (dumping/savers aside). If you lose, you lose. If you win you only get 50% – 70% (or whatever your arrangement is) of your bet back. Roulette with ten greens would give better odds if you just bet on black or red. Sooo… why does anybody stakehorse?

If the horse you're staking can run then even 25-50% return on the money could be quite lucrative.
 
Sometimes.......

Now-a-days most "SteakHorses" run a Debit, Credit with the player. It isn't settled day to day. The player gets to play for much more than he could afford to play for and with much less pressure.
The Steakhorse gets the action and the opportunity to bet on his opinion. He has much more input and direction as to what, when, how & where his money fares than he would in say, The Stock Market, Horse Racing or (God Forbid) a Casino.
I was never a big believer in having a SteakHorse - UNTIL - Detroit back in the '70's. Pool players were getting 30, 40 & 50 % of 100 & 200 thousand dollar sets. Before getting to Detroit and after leaving they were betting their own and playing 20, 30 & 50 dollar pool.
DO THE MATH!

TY & GL
 
OldHasBeen said:
Now-a-days most "SteakHorses" run a Debit, Credit with the player. It isn't settled day to day. The player gets to play for much more than he could afford to play for and with much less pressure.
The Steakhorse gets the action and the opportunity to bet on his opinion. He has much more input and direction as to what, when, how & where his money fares than he would in say, The Stock Market, Horse Racing or (God Forbid) a Casino.
I was never a big believer in having a SteakHorse - UNTIL - Detroit back in the '70's. Pool players were getting 30, 40 & 50 % of 100 & 200 thousand dollar sets. Before getting to Detroit and after leaving they were betting their own and playing 20, 30 & 50 dollar pool.
DO THE MATH!

TY & GL
When your tryin to MAKT IT PLAYIN POOL it's nice for someone to pick up the road tab,silly! Nice to play & not worrie about how your going to get gas money,food, pay for the table ect! It;s same as working for a co,somewhere Try to race a car in any big race on your own $$$ Your the horse in the race all you have to do is WIN!! Are you BLOND?? :D O H B said it right!! I was born in the life!! I love the action it's almost like fishing.When your fishing on the bottom with no bobber and get that bite you feel a little flutter inside!!!
 
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The math I was doing was from the perspective of the guy that is putting up the money, not the player. My question was why would anyone BE a stakehorse not why would anyone want to HAVE one. The first few responses were on track the last two have diverted from the intent of the question. But thanks for the thoughts, I always like to hear what OHB has to say.
 
B.J.the bandit said:
When your tryin to MAKT IT PLAYIN POOL it's nice for someone to pick up the road tab,silly! Nice to play & not worrie about how your going to get gas money,food, pay for the table ect! It;s same as working for a co,somewhere Try to race a car in any big race on your own $$$ Your the horse in the race all you have to do is WIN!! Are you BLOND?? :D O H B said it right!! I was born in the life!! I love the action is't almost like fishing.When your fishing on the bottom with no bobber and get that bite you feel a little flutter inside!!!


B.J.,

I think you misread the original post :)



Eric
 
my answer was for Breakup, Eric!! I gave why I do it!! OR rather why I DID IT years ago!! Im not to good on this computer thing Im just learninnnnn!! :D Maby ypu DON"T FISh!! Maby you can't hold a pole!!Ha Ha :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 
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Stakehorsing is a lot more than just picking up somebody's road tab. My partner made the bets, I put the balls in the subway. I didn't interfere with his part of the business, he didn't interfere with mine. He set up the bets, and made an investment in my talent and abilities. If we won, we spent the night in a motel. If we lost, we swatted mosquitos all night sleeping in the car at a rest area. My partner and I were loyal to each other. These days there are a lot of cowboys that will shoot with anybody's money, and there is no loyalty or commitment involved. It takes a lot of teamwork, and the stakehorse must know the strengths of his player as well as the weaknesses. My partner Dexter would scout players for days before trying to set something up. What he was doing was devising a gameplan that would play to my opponent's weaknesses.

When I went to Texas and rolled Gene Skinner, it wasn't so much about my playing as it was about Dexter's ability to set up the right game with the right player at the right time for the right money. When you work as a team like that, then my job and his become much easier. All I have to do is put the balls in the holes. I didn't have to worry about setting up games, money, attitudes, arguments, or anything else but screwing my cue together and getting the job done. Many players try to do all of this, and I think that's wrong. I would never interfere or say a word while Dexter was making the deal. That would have been like Dexter interrupting me during the matchup and telling me what ball to shoot and how to do it. We respected each other's positions within the partnership. We understood our roles. So why would anybody do it? Because it is a vital ingredient to your success on the road (in my opinion). Is there risk involved? Darn right. There is risk involved in anything when the outcome is in question. This is just my opinion on this subject.
 
B.J.the bandit said:
my answer was for Breakup, Eric!! I gave why I do it!! OR rather why I DID IT years ago!! Im not to good on this computer thing Im just learninnnnn!! :D Maby ypu DON"T FISh!! Maby you can't hold a pole!!Ha Ha :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


Sorry! I've been know to throw my 2 cents around. :rolleyes:


Eric >can barely hold a pole too
 
Eric. said:
B.J.,
I think you misread the original post :)
Eric
BJ's at least a second generation experienced stakehorse, you could say, because her dad was big into making games going back a long, long ways -- to Johnston City and before. Typing is not her best thing, however :) , but her last couple sentences do say alot about why people stakehorse though.

The other thing to keep in mind, breakup, is that the odds aren't blind -- like for example flipping a coin -- staking is an art that those who are real good at do much better than those who are not, and that's why those who are good at it stay in it (besides the love of the action). They make money at it. They are good judges of talent, and good at 'making games'. Of course, just like there are 'sucker' pool players, there are 'sucker' stakehorses that don't have the savvy in judging games and players -- but think they do.
 
1pocket said:
The other thing to keep in mind, breakup, is that the odds aren't blind -- like for example flipping a coin -- staking is an art that those who are real good at do much better than those who are not, and that's why those who are good at it stay in it (besides the love of the action). They make money at it. They are good judges of talent, and good at 'making games'. Of course, just like there are 'sucker' pool players, there are 'sucker' stakehorses that don't have the savvy in judging games and players -- but think they do.

That makes good sense.

Thanks folks, I knew I would get some voices of experience
 
Jimmy M. said:
I'll be the first to admit it ... I can't hold a pole -- nor do I want to! :eek:

Dandy reply, Why do they do it, why, they cant dance, cant sing, cant run 3 balls, too dumb for NYC, too ugly for LA, cant get laid in Haihara, have money and want to be somebody and soon everyone is kissing your ass begging for the loot. Its a power thing, it goes to some heads and the reality or financial stablity of the transactions no longer matter. On a larger scale you see that happen to very conservative business people who then buy a baseball or football team and then go absolutely wild doing things so dumb they defy reason. People want to play a role and some roles cost big bucks. Some are most willing to pay the price for that fame or role.
:D
 
In the words of a stake horse I know that doesn't play as well as the big boys.
He says I come to participate, note spectate.
 
Blackjack said:
Stakehorsing is a lot more than just picking up somebody's road tab. My partner made the bets, I put the balls in the subway. I didn't interfere with his part of the business, he didn't interfere with mine. He set up the bets, and made an investment in my talent and abilities. If we won, we spent the night in a motel. If we lost, we swatted mosquitos all night sleeping in the car at a rest area. My partner and I were loyal to each other. These days there are a lot of cowboys that will shoot with anybody's money, and there is no loyalty or commitment involved. It takes a lot of teamwork, and the stakehorse must know the strengths of his player as well as the weaknesses. My partner Dexter would scout players for days before trying to set something up. What he was doing was devising a gameplan that would play to my opponent's weaknesses.

When I went to Texas and rolled Gene Skinner, it wasn't so much about my playing as it was about Dexter's ability to set up the right game with the right player at the right time for the right money. When you work as a team like that, then my job and his become much easier. All I have to do is put the balls in the holes. I didn't have to worry about setting up games, money, attitudes, arguments, or anything else but screwing my cue together and getting the job done. Many players try to do all of this, and I think that's wrong. I would never interfere or say a word while Dexter was making the deal. That would have been like Dexter interrupting me during the matchup and telling me what ball to shoot and how to do it. We respected each other's positions within the partnership. We understood our roles. So why would anybody do it? Because it is a vital ingredient to your success on the road (in my opinion). Is there risk involved? Darn right. There is risk involved in anything when the outcome is in question. This is just my opinion on this subject.

Tap, tap, tap

Mike
 
Blackjack David Sapolis - Got It Right - Great Post!

I have seen some great Steakhorse/Player teams over the years and the ones who were the most successful were the ones that operated just as Blackjack David Sapolis described.
I can't imagine Mike Siegel "On The Road" without Larry Hubbard. That was one of the most successful Road Teams of all time, (IMO). Of course what made it so damn great was after Mike beat everyone and now they knew who & where the $ was, Larry always said, Well Hell - If you don't want to play him anymore, I guess you'll just have to match up with me. Now talk about GOING FROM THE FRYPAN AND INTO THE FIRE, that would be a gross understatement.
I never forget a time in Baltimore during a World Nine Ball Championship when it came down to Larry & Mike playing for the title. I caught Larry in the lounge about 45 min. before the match and told him I was going to unload on a rail bet and asked him what he thought. He said, Tom - All I can tell you is that - As of today Mike & I have played each other 13 times in tournaments and right now Mike is 2/11 against me.
This was the same tournament that I was such a Hugh underdog when playing Billy Johnson (Wade Crane) in my match that I unloaded with the house bookie on myself. We were racing to 9 and (because nobody ever saw me play on the east coast), they were betting I wouldn't get to 6. I won the match 9-8 by making the 9 on the break.
So, anyway now I had a nice BR and with what Larry had just told me I bet everything I had (except $150), $5,600 on Larry.

Hubbard, 9 - Siegel, 3

I found out later in life that for the student to defeat the teacher, He has to be at least the 8 BETTER to have a square chance.

TY & GL
 
whitewolf-Let me get this straight. Your partner didn't ever have to tell you to lay off a bit during a match?

Did I ever say that?

You never had a change of plans when a bigger fish walked through the door just before you were going to shoot and your partner signals timeout from the sidelines?

So this is an interview?

It sounds like your world of stakehorsing was too perfect, with no chaos, if you know what I mean.

I was answering questions from my point of view, not sharing my life story - and no... I don't know what you mean.

I have never been around and haven't seen much action, so please forgive my probing - I am just curious.

Curious - amongst other things. That statement disqualifies you from stating any opinon on this topic.

Maybe I have watched The Color of Money too many times and believe that is the way the world goes round.

The Color of Money was a movie, and in my opinion not a realistic presentation of life on the road.

Listen, I can argue with you all day about what you think about what I wrote. Those that have been out there understood what I wrote and why I wrote it. It was my answer to the gentleman's question. I played pool on the road for a very long time. I experienced good times and bad times. Anybody that has ever talked to me knows that it was not a picnic. My current health problems stand as a testimony to others to stay away from what I did. I lost money, I lost time, and I lost a lot of friends to their demons. To insinuate that I was painting a rosey picture of it is way off base, uncalled for, and you know that. I make it no secret that my partner Dexter took his life in 1997. I lost other people that way as well. Some to drugs, some to suicide, some were even murdered. The question asked was not directed for me (or anyone) to elaborate on those type of events, so I stuck to the question and gave my opinion from my experience as a road player, not as a movie-goer. If you want the entire story of my life, buy the book. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but so was your attitude.
 
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