Why does everybody always knock the APA?

[onepocketchump]

I understand that it encourages people to play below their true skill level, but nobody twists your arm and makes you play. I play because it is fun. I don't take it very seriously. Come on, it is pool. It can't be that bad.



Dave-----Just wondering why everytime the APA gets mentioned, someone starts a flaming contest

I don't know about everyone else but I knock it because the system is flawed and encourages sandbagging and penalizes players who truly play their top gear.

I don't like the fact that the "system" usually comes down to someone's opinion of how good a player is rather than how actually performed.

I don't like a league that has players showing up without knowing if they are going to play because of what the other team brings or because someone complained that they got beat too badly the week before or because the league operator heard that so and so gambled with so and so and therefore decided to bump so and so up several levels based on hearsay.

Those are a few reasons I knock the APA.

John

 

[Ummagumma]

I don't like a league that has players showing up without knowing if they are going to play because of what the other team brings

Yeah, that sucks. I've waited 3.5 hours before finding out I wasn't going to be playing. Our team was very studious in determining who was going to play depending on who the other team was putting up. Granted, we came in 2nd place in the money tourney, and have qualified for the city playoffs in June, but still...

And as others have pointed out, APA is more for the social player than a BCA player. The upside of APA is it exposes a casual player to the game and they can still have their comfort level of socializing and drinking beer. The downside of APA is wasting....errrr, spending 80% of your time waiting to play.

 

[Ummagumma]

They don't want SL6 and SL7 to be able to steamroll the competition and take over the league. That's not what it's about. It's about being able to make lower end shooters have fun in a competitive environment.

They are smart enough to realize, like a lot of pool rooms who hold small weekly tournaments should realize, is that if one person/team continues to dominate, then people are not going to show up for very long.

I think you hit it right on the head. And I'm all for that. Let the social and casual players do their thing.

Everyone complains that pool doesn't attract enough attention, not enough audience. What better than to slowly expose the casual player to the game? They can play and they can do the social thing that comes along with it.

 

[Ummagumma]

Many of the teams we play NEVER and I mean NEVER mark a defensive shot.

Whenever I played and announced to the other team that I was going to do a safety, my team told me that I didn't have to tell them; that it was up to them to figure out if I was doing a safety or not -- I only had to tell my own team that I had to do a safety.

After the match, I usually went over to the other team score person and told them to add a bunch of safeties that I had done.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

The APA rewards ball bangers and doesn't give players an incentive to improve their games. Whenever I am around league players, I always hear them discussing how to keep their averages low, and their innings high.

 

[StormHotRod300]

Ok, so i have a question for everyone who bashes the APA

What are you suppose to do if in your AREA of living the only leagues is the APA? And the nearest BCA or VNEA is a hour or more away?

Now I hear alot that the APA is just for beginners, or bangers. Well not everyone who shoots pool plays like Johnny Archer, or Corey Deuel, right from the start. I am sure none of you did either. And some people only shoot pool casually, as a nite out, but most of them do want to get better and learn how to play.

I know alot of APA leagues like the bigger ones in Chicago have several divisions with lots of teams and alot of GOOD players, which is how you end up with people who you'd say is sandbagging, because they are a 3,4 or 5 and are running racks.

Its only because they have so many top players that its easy for someone who is a SL4 or 5 and they have a bad day and end up losing to a SL2 or 3.

Where if you have smaller divisions and are playing the same players all the time, you learn how to beat them so you end up with a higher handicap than what you should be.

Now call me crazy, but if your playing 8ball and break and make the 11ball and end up hooked behind the 3ball, whos fault is that?? I am not sure what league it is, but in 8ball i heard that as long as you make a ball the table is still open. Now doesnt that cater to the lower level players? And to me that shows that as long as you try to break as hard as possible with no care for CB control and make a ball its ok cuz the table is still open.

Now someone brought up in APA 9ball that thiers no push-out after the break. Well cry me a river! learn to control your break and make a ball. Then you wont have that problem so much.

The only thing i can complain about in APA 8ball is the handicap rating, because there is such a wide range of skill when you get to be a SL 6 and 7.

I myself am a SL6 but, I am at best a OK SL6, I have a very hard time beating most SL5's and 6's and hafta play my best. But on the flip side, I am WAY too good to be a SL5, because i would just beat everyone, unless i played a SL6 or 7.

If the APA 8ball handicap system went from a 2-9 rating i think it would be more fair. And give a wider range of ratings for players. I say this because i have seen some SL7's who are SL9's in 9ball, and they are almost impossible to beat.

But besides that i say leagues are what you make of it. Most of the people in my area who play the APA leagues are out to win, but also have fun.

I know there are SOME ways to manipulate the handicap system, like have new players, play against a strong opponent so they will lose and drop down, and have them always play against strong players to keep thier handicap low. But that only works for so long untill they start to win big and go up again.

but enough of my ranting lol

dave

 

[Andrew Manning]

I don't know about everyone else but I knock it because the system is flawed and encourages sandbagging and penalizes players who truly play their top gear.
John

I hate it when people say this. What the hell kind of attitude problem do you have to have to see a high skill level as a penalty?!? It's an HONOR!!! I play my top gear whenever I can find it, and I can't wait until I'm a 7! The vast majority (I would guess 80%) of the people in my division always play hard.

That said, I would like to play in a non-handicapped league, where the only way to win is to play better than the other guy. But at my pool hall, where we have two divisions of 8 teams each playing APA, there aren't enough people who would play in a non-handicapped league to get one started up. The APA gets people to play, and I don't mind an imperfect handicapping system. Think of it as an extra challenge to use pure playing ability to beat people who try to use the system to their advantage.

-Andrew

 

[pooltchr]

I don't know about everyone else but I knock it because the system is flawed and encourages sandbagging and penalizes players who truly play their top gear.

John

John,
They made you a 9. You shoot like a 9. Maybe they didn't do it the way you wanted, but be honest...would it have been fair for you to play as a 5 or a 6 until the handicap system caught up with you?
Just another way of looking at it. I am aware of your feelings about the APA, but you have to admit, they did assign the correct handicap to you based on your skill level. They just did it more quickly than usual.
Steve

 

[ShaneT58]

I rarely post here but I think you aren't looking at both sides of the coin here.

Now call me crazy, but if your playing 8ball and break and make the 11ball and end up hooked behind the 3ball, whos fault is that?? I am not sure what league it is, but in 8ball i heard that as long as you make a ball the table is still open. Now doesnt that cater to the lower level players? And to me that shows that as long as you try to break as hard as possible with no care for CB control and make a ball its ok cuz the table is still open.

What about when I break and make 3 or 4 of either high or low balls and none of the other. The rest of my balls are tied up and the other ones are a perfect road map to a run out. I guess I should get penalized for making too many balls on the break?

Now someone brought up in APA 9ball that thiers no push-out after the break. Well cry me a river! learn to control your break and make a ball. Then you wont have that problem so much.

The break in 9ball is huge. I would rather take as much luck out of it as possible and have a push out available. I don't care how good you are the break shot is the most subject to luck. Picture this. You have a low ranked player playing a high ranked player. Which one do you think can kick at the ball better if they are hooked? Which one can control the break better? So the lower ranked player will hook them selves more and hit the ball less. They are twice as screwed. If they manage to win a game. I think the no push out rule favors the better player and is against what the APA is suposed to be about.

Shane

 

[onepocketchump]

John,
They made you a 9. You shoot like a 9. Maybe they didn't do it the way you wanted, but be honest...would it have been fair for you to play as a 5 or a 6 until the handicap system caught up with you?
Just another way of looking at it. I am aware of your feelings about the APA, but you have to admit, they did assign the correct handicap to you based on your skill level. They just did it more quickly than usual.
Steve

The correct way in my opinion would have been to start EVERYONE at the middle handicap and let the results determine the handicap. Perhaps I do shoot "like a nine" on occassion but that does not mean I always do. What they did was to take my money and promise me all kinds of fun. Instead, what I got were a bunch of whiners who couldn't take getting their nuts shot off while they were trying to protect their sandbagging teammates. I didn't care about being a 9. I cared about the completely biased way to assign a handicap. The handicap should be earned and not given. Let me play the 10 matches and establish a handicap so that I am fairly assessed and also eligble to play in other events. Don't just bump someone up because you "heard" that he is good. That is why I rail on the APA.

IF they are going to arbitrarily assign a handicap then they should not have a ten match requirement to qualify for other events.

But, Steve, you assume that this is my only problem with the APA. My ex-wife was an assistant league-op for several years and has a lot of nice stories of APA abuses and general system failures. I personally have seen teams go to regionals and national and get disqualified because they played a little better than their ranking. Guess what, people who go to nationals are introduced to professional level instruction. It is natural progression that a certain percentage of them are going to learn things in that company that are going to make them better players. But because the APA system is flawed in regards to sandbagging and arbitrary handicapping the officials at nationals have little choice but to continue with more arbitrary judgements about player handicaps. Thus the good honest players get penalized along with the sandbaggers.

These are my issues.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

I hate it when people say this. What the hell kind of attitude problem do you have to have to see a high skill level as a penalty?!? It's an HONOR!!! I play my top gear whenever I can find it, and I can't wait until I'm a 7! The vast majority (I would guess 80%) of the people in my division always play hard.

That said, I would like to play in a non-handicapped league, where the only way to win is to play better than the other guy. But at my pool hall, where we have two divisions of 8 teams each playing APA, there aren't enough people who would play in a non-handicapped league to get one started up. The APA gets people to play, and I don't mind an imperfect handicapping system. Think of it as an extra challenge to use pure playing ability to beat people who try to use the system to their advantage.

-Andrew

People who have a high gear and use it in the APA are the least wanted players. So if you want to be a part of an APA league team then you have to sandbag in order to get to play. I went out and played my top gear and was summarilly bumped to the highest rank without the chance to establish a handicap like everyone else. This is a penalty in my opinion, not a badge of honor. Someone who progresses from a 4 to a 7 can claim a badge of honor. A player who is unfairly labeled a semi-pro just because they gambled with some good players is utter ridiculousness. The whole point of the APA is supposed to be an unbiased system of handicapping players. It is not unbiased or fair. And that is why so many people rail on it.

I too prefer to play my highest gear when I play. I enjoy the challenge of playing league matches with a high handicap and trying to overcome it. Of course it is hard to overcome when I am unfairly rated a 9 and my opponent is rated a 4 but shoots like a 6. Or how about the 2s and 3s that run out four and five balls perfectly - and I mean PERFECTLY?

Before you start in on me. I have plenty of friends who spot me when we gamble who are proud that they go out to the APA as 5s and just ROB the mini-tournaments. Where is the fairness there? Their league-ops know that they gamble and are among the best players in their area. So why do they get away with being 5s while I am bumped to a 9 based on a few gambling matches????

Because the APA is not fair or consistent across the country.

John

 

[pooltchr]

John,
I can't argue with that. The system that is designed to protect against sandbagging, does in fact penalize players for improving. It also penalizes teams as the players get better. I've seen it over and over. I guess that's why I just consider league night a social night out with a little pool involved. I don't care if the teams wins a trip to Vegas. Logistically, I couldn't take my team to Vegas for a week as 3 of my team members comprise over half the staff at their store. They couldn't possibly all take the same time off.
The only point I was making is if you know you are obviously underrated, why allow it to remain that way? Your team captain has the responsibility to make sure all the players on the team are fairly ranked. You know as well as I do, that if you were ranked an APA 4 that you are going to mop up the table with any one you play at that rank. I'm a 6, and I sure wouldn't want to have to give you a 15 point spot!!!
It ain't like a money match or a big money tournament. Accept it for what it is...social pool with a big carrot dangling out there for a few teams to end up in Vegas.
Steve

 

[Andrew Manning]

People who have a high gear and use it in the APA are the least wanted players. So if you want to be a part of an APA league team then you have to sandbag in order to get to play. I went out and played my top gear and was summarilly bumped to the highest rank without the chance to establish a handicap like everyone else. This is a penalty in my opinion, not a badge of honor. Someone who progresses from a 4 to a 7 can claim a badge of honor. A player who is unfairly labeled a semi-pro just because they gambled with some good players is utter ridiculousness. The whole point of the APA is supposed to be an unbiased system of handicapping players. It is not unbiased or fair. And that is why so many people rail on it.

I too prefer to play my highest gear when I play. I enjoy the challenge of playing league matches with a high handicap and trying to overcome it. Of course it is hard to overcome when I am unfairly rated a 9 and my opponent is rated a 4 but shoots like a 6. Or how about the 2s and 3s that run out four and five balls perfectly - and I mean PERFECTLY?

Before you start in on me. I have plenty of friends who spot me when we gamble who are proud that they go out to the APA as 5s and just ROB the mini-tournaments. Where is the fairness there? Their league-ops know that they gamble and are among the best players in their area. So why do they get away with being 5s while I am bumped to a 9 based on a few gambling matches????

Because the APA is not fair or consistent across the country.

John

Well, you're right about the getting to play vs. not getting to play aspect of high handicaps; I wasn't really thinking about it from that angle. It does suck when your team can't ever really play you because they need to try to make the numbers work.

But as far as playing against players who have artificially low handicaps, I like playing them, because I like to try to play a perfect match. I'd much rather beat someone 4-0 than 4-3, and playing a 4-2 race against a player who's way too strong to get that kind of weight from me just forces me to strive for perfection. It puts pressure on me not only to play better than them, but to shut them out. I enjoy it.

And we're in total agreement about the people who are proud of how low they can keep their handicaps. People like that make me glad I'm not them.

-Andrew

 

[Chris]

What about when I break and make 3 or 4 of either high or low balls and none of the other. The rest of my balls are tied up and the other ones are a perfect road map to a run out. I guess I should get penalized for making too many balls on the break?

Shane

Isn't the table open after the break in the APA? If not, what other rules are different from the WPA Rules?

4.10 CHOICE OF GROUP
The choice of stripes or solids is not determined on the break even if balls are made from only one or both groups, because the table is always open immediately after the break shot. The choice of group is determined only when a player legally pockets a called object ball after the break shot.

 

[fred_in_hoboken]

Isn't the table open after the break in the APA? If not, what other rules are different from the WPA Rules?

In APA rules, the table is not open if you sink balls from one group on the break.

If you sink no balls (duh) or balls from both groups (regardless of how many), the table remains open.

 

[Chris]

In APA rules, the table is not open if you sink balls from one group on the break.

If you sink no balls (duh) or balls from both groups (regardless of how many), the table remains open.

Thank you for the info.