Why Ghost Ball Aiming Fails You

JB Cases

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Silver Member
With all the discussion about CTE I have been thinking about why I can't use Ghost Ball that well. I mean the concept is perfectly clear. Imagine a ball in line with the pocket and shoot the cueball into that imaginary ball and the object ball MUST then travel on the line. Simple enough.

We are told to find the center spot of the Ghost Ball and align that to the center of the cue ball. We are told to put the tip of our cue on that spot and pivot around until the cue over the cue ball.

There are dozens of "aim trainers" out there to help you "see" the Ghost Ball.

So why, after all these years and with the aid of all these devices can't I see the ghost ball and the ghost ball center?

Well here is an experiment you can do to see why it's hard to use this simple concept in real life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-L4QMNiVxk

Take a piece of paper, a ball, and a fine tip sharpie.

Put a dot anywhere on the paper. Put the ball on that dot. now take your sharpie an put dots all around the ball at what you think is the Ghost Ball center.

Should be an easy exercise since you are sitting at your desk, with all the time in the world, not standing above the table with a cue stick in your hand under pressure to shoot.

When you are done pick up the ball and measure the distance from the original dot to the estimated dots and see how well you were able to measure JUST the distance alone. This doesn't even take into account being able to accurately place the invisible ball along the right line which SOME people can't consistently do with a REAL ball.

Here a video of me trying this experiment ONCE and only once. Using the same measuring tool that would be available to me if I were at the table, my brain. Watch it and see how I did. I bet none of you who claim Ghost Ball as the greatest way to aim will even try it and put up your results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-L4QMNiVxk

Only 3 of the 11 dots were even within .15" (that's a fifteenth of an inch) of 2.25" from the center of the object ball. The rest were off by an average of a quarter inch.

Let's see how well you can do it.

Now, think about that next time you are playing. I believe that in reality it's all just your best guess when using Ghost Ball. On some shots it's pretty clear and even if your off exact center the margin of error is enough to make the ball and on other shots it's not so easy and there isn't much fudge room. Which is why you MUST hit a million balls if you intend to rely on Ghost Ball.

Because that's the ONLY way to develop your "feel" to the point where you aren't consciously trying to use GB anymore.

Where CTE works for me is that I don't have to hit a million balls to learn how to aim. Now that aiming is taken care of I can focus on my stroke and speed control.
 
If ghost ball aiming fails, then what happens to your cueball control?
I guess you lose the natural tangent too?
 
JoeyInCali said:
If ghost ball aiming fails, then what happens to your cueball control?
I guess you lose the natural tangent too?
Click to expand...

Exactly. What happens to cue ball control? If you have been around pool then you have seen people miss the shot and get perfect shape on the next ball. Upon which they say "my shape was perfect, too bad I missed the shot" or something similar.

When I started using Hal's system to aim and now CTE my position play is hugely better because I am lined up right to make the shot and thus I can see where the cueball is going.

For me personally it was almost like night and day to go from guessing to surety and being able to move the cue ball along lines that are clear as if they were marked on the table.
 
JB Cases said:
With all the discussion about CTE I have been thinking about why I can't use Ghost Ball that well. I mean the concept is perfectly clear. Imagine a ball in line with the pocket and shoot the cueball into that imaginary ball and the object ball MUST then travel on the line. Simple enough.

We are told to find the center spot of the Ghost Ball and align that to the center of the cue ball. We are told to put the tip of our cue on that spot and pivot around until the cue over the cue ball.

There are dozens of "aim trainers" out there to help you "see" the Ghost Ball.

So why, after all these years and with the aid of all these devices can't I see the ghost ball and the ghost ball center?

Well here is an experiment you can do to see why it's hard to use this simple concept in real life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-L4QMNiVxk

Take a piece of paper, a ball, and a fine tip sharpie.

Put a dot anywhere on the paper. Put the ball on that dot. now take your sharpie an put dots all around the ball at what you think is the Ghost Ball center.

Should be an easy exercise since you are sitting at your desk, with all the time in the world, not standing above the table with a cue stick in your hand under pressure to shoot.

When you are done pick up the ball and measure the distance from the original dot to the estimated dots and see how well you were able to measure JUST the distance alone. This doesn't even take into account being able to accurately place the invisible ball along the right line which SOME people can't consistently do with a REAL ball.

Here a video of me trying this experiment ONCE and only once. Using the same measuring tool that would be available to me if I were at the table, my brain. Watch it and see how I did. I bet none of you who claim Ghost Ball as the greatest way to aim will even try it and put up your results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-L4QMNiVxk

Only 3 of the 11 dots were even within .15" (that's a fifteenth of an inch) of 2.25" from the center of the object ball. The rest were off by an average of a quarter inch.

Let's see how well you can do it.

Now, think about that next time you are playing. I believe that in reality it's all just your best guess when using Ghost Ball. On some shots it's pretty clear and even if your off exact center the margin of error is enough to make the ball and on other shots it's not so easy and there isn't much fudge room. Which is why you MUST hit a million balls if you intend to rely on Ghost Ball.

Because that's the ONLY way to develop your "feel" to the point where you aren't consciously trying to use GB anymore.

Where CTE works for me is that I don't have to hit a million balls to learn how to aim. Now that aiming is taken care of I can focus on my stroke and speed control.
Click to expand...

I just watched the ghost ball video, i never thought ghost ball was supposed to be used as an aiming method like that but rather showing where to aim. In my opinion aiming a shot is a process that is good to go through to develop a great feel for how shots work.

Two balls touching shows you the contact point on the shot (Using ghost ball). Now line up that contact point with the contact point of the cueball (aiming the shot). Through shooting you get a feel for the shots and over time you get used to applying spin to pocket balls and make shape. After you're more consistent with that you begin to see the effects of throw on your shots and can now compensate for that too. I feel aiming should be a process that you learn to get better control on the cueball, but this is just my opinion.
 
JB Cases said:
With all the discussion about CTE I have been thinking about why I can't use Ghost Ball that well. I mean the concept is perfectly clear. Imagine a ball in line with the pocket and shoot the cueball into that imaginary ball and the object ball MUST then travel on the line. Simple enough.

We are told to find the center spot of the Ghost Ball and align that to the center of the cue ball. We are told to put the tip of our cue on that spot and pivot around until the cue over the cue ball.

There are dozens of "aim trainers" out there to help you "see" the Ghost Ball.

So why, after all these years and with the aid of all these devices can't I see the ghost ball and the ghost ball center?

Well here is an experiment you can do to see why it's hard to use this simple concept in real life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-L4QMNiVxk

Take a piece of paper, a ball, and a fine tip sharpie.

Put a dot anywhere on the paper. Put the ball on that dot. now take your sharpie an put dots all around the ball at what you think is the Ghost Ball center.

Should be an easy exercise since you are sitting at your desk, with all the time in the world, not standing above the table with a cue stick in your hand under pressure to shoot.

When you are done pick up the ball and measure the distance from the original dot to the estimated dots and see how well you were able to measure JUST the distance alone. This doesn't even take into account being able to accurately place the invisible ball along the right line which SOME people can't consistently do with a REAL ball.

Here a video of me trying this experiment ONCE and only once. Using the same measuring tool that would be available to me if I were at the table, my brain. Watch it and see how I did. I bet none of you who claim Ghost Ball as the greatest way to aim will even try it and put up your results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-L4QMNiVxk

Only 3 of the 11 dots were even within .15" (that's a fifteenth of an inch) of 2.25" from the center of the object ball. The rest were off by an average of a quarter inch.

Let's see how well you can do it.

Now, think about that next time you are playing. I believe that in reality it's all just your best guess when using Ghost Ball. On some shots it's pretty clear and even if your off exact center the margin of error is enough to make the ball and on other shots it's not so easy and there isn't much fudge room. Which is why you MUST hit a million balls if you intend to rely on Ghost Ball.

Because that's the ONLY way to develop your "feel" to the point where you aren't consciously trying to use GB anymore.

Where CTE works for me is that I don't have to hit a million balls to learn how to aim. Now that aiming is taken care of I can focus on my stroke and speed control.
Click to expand...


You are so full of shit its unreal.

The one thing that fails is YOU.

Forget the paper, lets play some pool.
 
ghostball Ha Ha

Imho I think ghostball is the biggest piece of poop that was ever taught!

no wonder people quit this game,They could never reach a high level of play useing ghostball! it takes too much time and does not make sense! I think its a gimmick that pros and great players say they use to keep people from finding out how they aim.


Just worthless junk to keep people guessing! I asked several top players how they aim, and they all say how do you aim ? I say ghostball ( Not really), And then they say thats how I aim! Pleasssse! give me a break!


Now I really don`t expect them to devulge their secrets, but , I don`t expect the same bull either!




Anyway I could go on , But I made my point! Forget ghostball, it will never get you anywhere. Find a better system you like and use it.




H.P.
 
Ghost ball help

Hi John,

Your post was thought provoking.

I am a player who considers myself one to use the "ghost ball" method.

I have however never focused on an imaginary dot 2 and a quarter inches from the contact point.

I have much better luck focusing EXACTLY on the contact point, and imagining the ghost ball touching that point (adjusting in my mind) for the diameter of the ghost ball. I am not focusing at an imaginary spot out in the middle of the table - but at exactly the contact point.

The "ghost" is an imaginary cue ball, the focus is on the exact contact point, and the aim (with no pivots) accounts for the diamater of the "ghost ball" to make sure both contact points align.

Thanks for giving me something to think about though...

Dan
 
Ghost ball works fine as long as actual contact point on the object ball becomes the same as the target point (where the ghost ball would contact the object ball in order to drive it into a pocket or any other desired place on the table) and compensation for throw effect takes place as well.
It clearly helps estimating of the tangent line (as long as the cueball does not roll when it reaches the object ball) and I believe it's not that complicated.
Also knowing how to divide the object ball in the main parts that are easy to visualize (full ball, half ball, 3/4, 1/4, 90 degree cut) helps a lot.
IMHO most aiming methods fail when players forget the other elements that affect the cueball's path until it reaches the object ball (for e.g. deflection) and because the are simply not enough to drive a cueball into position!
That's why we should mainly practice shots including position play, not just pocketing the object ball into a pocket.
Finally, any system should never remove the most important part in playing: feeling. Knowledge in the art of pool is essential, and it's like theory in music: you learn it in order to overcome it. When a mucisian studies he/she analyses each part but when he/she performs he/she does not think for e.g. "C minor".
Petros
 
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I know that JB cases had been playing for years before he discovered cte so his shotmaking improvement testimony means nothing to me as I'm sure he had already learned to shoot by feel.

I'm interested in someone taking two apa 3s that can both make straight in shots all day but clearly have an issue with angled shots. Give a cte instructor an hour or so with subject a and a ghost ball instructor subject b. After the allotted time they both take a 100 ball test of the same exact shots and we get to see the results.

Do this experiment with 5 groups of students while at the Dcc to account for slight talent differences and then we've got something.

Ideally we would be using twins here but this is okay.

In fact they could find 10 apa 3s and the instructors could have them do try outs then take turns on who gets to pick their student for that round. Put $1000 up per instructor.

My girlfriend can't make a ball and I'm about to teach her. If CTE proved to win in this experiment then I will buy Stan's video and use cte to teach her.
 
When I started using Hal's system to aim and now CTE my position play is hugely better because I am lined up right to make the shot and thus I can see where the cueball is going.
IF you can see where the cueball is going, that means you know where the tangent line is and you are imagining the collision.
Which is ghost ball method.
You can't image the cueball path after collision by looking at your shaft or pivot or bridge.
Only by imagining the collision can you tell where the cb is going.
And as Efren would call it , PATAMA.
 
Here's the part that CTE leaves out, for me. With ghost ball, there is an understanding of the tangent line. When most of us learned how to play, the tangent line was the most important concept there was, as it showed us the resulting path of the cueball.

Although people slam ghost ball, it's the basis for how we play position. We look at the angle the cueball will leave the object ball from, and base our application of english on that angle. The angle is there for the "seeing". If you can't see "ghost ball", how do you ever make a carom shot? How do you play a safety, placing the cueball in a certain place after not pocketing a ball? If you see the angle, you're applying ghost ball theory whether you want to admit it or not.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Here's the part that CTE leaves out, for me. With ghost ball, there is an understanding of the tangent line. When most of us learned how to play, the tangent line was the most important concept there was, as it showed us the resulting path of the cueball.

Although people slam ghost ball, it's the basis for how we play position. We look at the angle the cueball will leave the object ball from, and base our application of english on that angle. The angle is there for the "seeing". If you can't see "ghost ball", how do you ever make a carom shot? How do you play a safety, placing the cueball in a certain place after not pocketing a ball? If you see the angle, you're applying ghost ball theory whether you want to admit it or not.
Click to expand...

tap tap tap
 
Kiss

I prefer the KISS method and hours upon hours of making balls and more balls and after all this prep work if you want to adopt a system that could ruin all that hard work, then by all means chase the ghost ball ...
 
I had been thinking about writing a thread on how to make ghost ball work (due to all the incessent CTE threads.)

Geometric Ghost ball, as typically taught, is merely a starting point. It gives you the first aiming point, one that will work if the CB impacts the OB with just enough sidespin so the two surfaces have no lateral movement durring the instant of impact.

Advanced Ghost ball, is where you consider the sidespin on the OB and the consequence of throw, then move the imaginary pocket in the opposite direction as the throw, and then readjust the GB aiming point for this new pocket. You must also consider the new tangent line, here, although this is generally only a mild consideration.

Perfected Ghost ball, is when you also take into consideration the forward/backward spin on the CB at the moment of impact and compensate for the skid of the OB for the first inch or so of OB travel.

You still ahve to compensate for squirt and swerve between the tip CB impact and the CB-OB impact--by whatever method you utilize.

So, geometric Ghost ball is merely a starting point, which can be used wih adjustments to take and make almost any kind of shot imaginable.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Here's the part that CTE leaves out, for me. With ghost ball, there is an understanding of the tangent line. When most of us learned how to play, the tangent line was the most important concept there was, as it showed us the resulting path of the cueball.

Although people slam ghost ball, it's the basis for how we play position. We look at the angle the cueball will leave the object ball from, and base our application of english on that angle. The angle is there for the "seeing". If you can't see "ghost ball", how do you ever make a carom shot? How do you play a safety, placing the cueball in a certain place after not pocketing a ball? If you see the angle, you're applying ghost ball theory whether you want to admit it or not.
Click to expand...

With me when I use CTE I see exactly where the cueball is going to hit the object ball and so the tangent line is clear.

I feel the exact opposite about Ghost Ball. Yes if properly applied you can see the tangent line BUT if your "ghost ball" is not lined up right then you are not seeing the right tangent line.

Hence my example above about missing the shot but getting perfect shape.

I also don't agree that caroms rely on Ghost Ball. I'd bet anything that carom players don't use GB when they play.
 
Luxury said:
I know that JB cases had been playing for years before he discovered cte so his shotmaking improvement testimony means nothing to me as I'm sure he had already learned to shoot by feel.

I'm interested in someone taking two apa 3s that can both make straight in shots all day but clearly have an issue with angled shots. Give a cte instructor an hour or so with subject a and a ghost ball instructor subject b. After the allotted time they both take a 100 ball test of the same exact shots and we get to see the results.

Do this experiment with 5 groups of students while at the Dcc to account for slight talent differences and then we've got something.

Ideally we would be using twins here but this is okay.

In fact they could find 10 apa 3s and the instructors could have them do try outs then take turns on who gets to pick their student for that round. Put $1000 up per instructor.

My girlfriend can't make a ball and I'm about to teach her. If CTE proved to win in this experiment then I will buy Stan's video and use cte to teach her.
Click to expand...

Well you know that's not going to happen but I agree with you 100% that something like that SHOULD happen.

I have anecdotal stories of teaching APA 3s Hal's method and watching them start pocketing balls way above their knowledge level.

But those are personal experiences without controls.
 
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