Why wont the ball draw???????

[Sputnik]

Actually Larry, I am willing to be corrected if I am wrong, (esp with your expreience and knowledge) so I don't mind your contradiction. I understand that the Masse curves. I was referring to the action the cue stick gives the ball (against the slate) with an elevated shot.

"Pique" has a filipino term "pika" or "saltik" which has so much to do with how the stroke is released to give an exaggerated reaction. I think I understand.

But going back to trying to help the original post, what do you think about the follow through skidding against the cloth in a draw?

 

[pro-player]

I just noticed that everyone who replied to your thread gave you different types of ways to draw the cueball. Some are theories that I have come across to be incorrect, some might help a little.

It is a combination of many things that prevent you from drawing the cueball how you want it. Finally, when you do draw the cueball how you want it, it is not consistent, like you said.

The problem lies mainly in your stroke, and there are probably many other factors that you do not realize that prevent you from doing this. In order to draw the CB straight back on a dead-straight shot, you must first learn how to shoot straight as an arrow. There is no quick-fix in pool. That is why every top player has been playing for decades. It takes years to develop a straight-stroke, so don't expect any amazing results in a few days of practicing.

First I would like to point out that you do not have to aim super-low to draw the CB back.

Secondly, everyone in this thread told you to change something either in your pre-shot, or your after-shot (follow thru).

What you need to do is figure out what you are doing wrong at the split second of EXECUTION. You will most likely not be able to see this by yourself, so find a good instructor to watch and see what you do when you make contact with the CB.

I would also like to point out that that a good draw can be done with a level cue or with the butt-end raised, but that is just preference. I prefer level.

As for your cue tip, I have experimented alot and have found that I can actually draw the CB farther with a cleaner hit using harder tips, like a Moori Hard or Water Buffalo. Don't change your tip until you figure out what is wrong with your stroke.

Finally, don't avoid draw shots in your practice sessions. Some players are afraid to practice straight-in long draw shots, I don't understand why. Whatever is your main weakness, you should work on that the most, without neglecting to fine tune your strengths.

 

[pooljunkie73]

good answer pro-player, you are the only one that told him how to improve his draw stroke.

Kent Mc.

 

[Number1]

For sure Larry, that's what I suspected. It sounds like the raised cue thing may work well and may even work better than a level cue. in a draw or trick shot competition. I just argue that if whoever wants to learn the best technique for potting balls and getting position consistently then they should stick with the level cue for most shots. I didn't think you where reccomending this for general play, I think that people may have been arguing about different things.

But you can show me the 4 length draw one day, I would like to see that. (did you take a run up?

Craig

 

[pro-player]

Hey Fast Larry, do you play one-handed well? If so, have you ever played Ernesto Dominguez one-handed? I've seen this guy run racks, and he doesn't even place the cue on the rail to steady it.

 

[Bluewolf]

I've said it a thousand times and in my opinion it is the best way to learn draw or follows. Take a striped ball and aline it so that the stripe is perfectly horizontal. Same amount of white at the top and the same amount of white at the bottom. Chalk up real good and make sure the ball is perfectly clean of all chalk marks. NOw using a level cue, not raised butt, and a lower closed bridge, with your index finger forming a closed loop over the cue, and with a good confident stroke, try to hit right where the stripe meets the white on the lower half of the ball. After you hit it take the striped ball and see where the tip actually hit. There should be a chalk mark on the centre of where the white meats the colored stripe. If the chalk marks isnt there you arent hitting low enough. Just keep practiceing like this until you have it perfected, cleaning the ball and chalking your tip after each shot. Once you can draw a little all it takes is confidence to make it draw alot.

I like this and see also another point here, which is showing if a person is striking the cueball where they think that they are.

Laura

 

[Rickw]

Pro-player,

I don't think you read all the posts or you wouldn't have made this comment, "Secondly, everyone in this thread told you to change something either in your pre-shot, or your after-shot (follow thru). " If you read all the posts, you might have noticed I said nothing about pre-shot or after-shot routine.

I have seen players that never change their bridge to draw, stop and follow and most of them have real problems with their control. I know because I used to be one of them. If you think that's bad advice, then enlighten me. I've been playing a long time but I still consider myself a student of the game. I feel I can learn from anyone.

 

[efirkey]

Sometimes when the cueball is against the rail you need to jack up and apply a draw stroke to stop the cueball or draw back. You can hit the cueball anywhere and get it to draw as long as you hit below the equator based on the angle of your cue. Of course when you jack up and hit down on the cueball you have to hit dead center vertically or else you will apply curve and miss the shot. Another instance is when you want to apply draw on a jump shot.

 

[Number1]

Yeah I agree I thought that many people had tried to help. OK to take up larry's challenge:

Reasons not to use elevated bridge for general play:

1) When elevated the cue you end up pushing the cue ball into the slate which will result in the cb jumping slightly. Therefore you have a bouncing cue ball heading towards the object ball although this may not be visable to the human eye. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this is not a desirable way of contacting the object ball. I'm sure most of you know what a kick is, a kick (although the cause is still up for dispute) often results in one or both of the balls in question jumping on impact. This usually seriously effects the role of the cue ball (slowing it down dramitically so desired position is lost) or even throwing the object ball completely offline so the pot is missed.


2) Also ask yourself how do you swerve the cue ball? You jack the cue up and hit on either side of the cue ball. This means that you must take great care to hit exactly the center of the cue ball when jacking up the cue, especially if the obect ball is some distance away. If you hit slightly off center playing with a level cue the amount of swerve/deflection will be much less than have you it the same spot while jacking up the cue.

3) IMO jacking (depending on how high you raise the butt) up the cue also limits follow through (since your not playing parellel to the table) and also effects your aim.

Although I am arguing that you should not use a jacked up cue for general draw shots there are circumstances when its a valuable tool or even the only shot you can play:

1) If the white ball is near the rail/cushion and you need to play a draw shot.

2) If the white ball is near another ball and you need to play a draw shot.

3) Jump shot (but that stands to reason since you would normally play this shot with a jacked cue anyway) etc..

Jump shots raise an interesting point which has already been picked up on. Larry can draw the cue ball while hitting it in the center, but with jump shots you are hitting it at the top. In reality you are always hitting it at the bottom realitive to the direction of the cue.

I would agree with larry that it is probably likely that if it was a pure contest you could probably get "more draw" by raising the butt. Consider what happens when you raise the cue butt. The poor white ball is trapped between two fairly hard objects, one the slate which isn't going anywhere and the other the cue (which is held by strong player eg you moving at some force towards the cue ball. Now since its unlikely that you will have raised your cue so that is vertical to the table you will be applying a force that it is at an angle to the slate. Now hopefully you can picture these two forces then the poor old cue ball is pinched between two forces with only one place to go. It is forced into the slate/cloth slightly in the direction of the cue force then it shoots out wich creates tremendous spin. Picture hitting one side of the cue ball on top with your hand in a karate chop motion. This is what is happening to a lesser extent when you jack up the cue.

Now compare this to a level stroke, when playing a level stroke there is only one force that comes into play and thats the cue. This shot doesn't create any pinch as the cue ball is played away from slate not trapped between two forces(objects) so all the spin must be created by the cue stroke.

IMO you need both shots in your amoury but if you are just learning draw master the level cue method first. You can get more than enough draw using this method for all your positional needs apart from the exceptions highlighted above. The jacked up method has its uses but they don't include general play.


Hope this helps

Craig

 

[pro-player]

I am able to draw the CB much further using a fairly level stroke as opposed to raising the butt of my cue. This is probably because I have been playing using a level stroke all my life.

 

[Rickw]

Pro-player,

You didn't respond to my post above. I agree with you on this post. I feel the same way. The only times I raise my butt (cue) is to jump or masse' and I prefer to masse' if I have a choice.

 

[pro-player]

^^

Sorry, what I meant was -most- of the posts I read. Your post is actually the only one that I completely agreed with, but failed to mention it. My apologies

 

[Rickw]

Hey, no problem. Thanks for the compliment! For a second there, I thought I might have been wrong or something. Just wanted to make sure I was on the right path. BTW, I agree with almost all of your posts.

 

[Number1]

I am able to draw the CB much further using a fairly level stroke as opposed to raising the butt of my cue. This is probably because I have been playing using a level stroke all my life.

That wouldn;t suprise me Pro, but I'm taking larry's world that he can draw 4 lengths, and I don't know about you but I couldn't beat that with a level cue. Like yourself I use a level cue whenever possible. For me its all about timing you can teach the basics in a forum but you need to see what the player is doing to really help.

Also one thing I forgot to mention was that the raised cue is also better for when the white is very close to the object ball.

Cheers

Craig

 

[bandido]

How do you explain the fact I can hit the cue ball exactly in the center on the equator and draw table length, I do bet very serious money I can do this, cleaned out a few pool halls with this bet. A lot of people have seen me do this, so it is true.

Using a lighter cueball?

 

[Number1]

Larry and I have agreed to disagree on this one (he's wrong though )

We might end up having a bun fight, I just have to make sure I hit him with more buns than he hits me with )

Craig

 

[bandido]

No no dude, I use a super pro aramith or a red circle, standard pool cue balls right off the shelf, I can do this with a house cue ball, a rock from the moon, want to bet some serious loot I cant?
Just kidding, really I can. The only reason I do that is this about 6 shots that I do that proves my theory works and the other one does not.

OK

 

[Bluewolf]

Larry and I have agreed to disagree on this one (he's wrong though )

We might end up having a bun fight, I just have to make sure I hit him with more buns than he hits me with )

Craig

My hubby and i have big debates on this. He said I only drew 2 diamonds or 4 on a good day because I use the 'chop down draw' (more than Low level) and he uses the 'low and level'. We were at Tim Scruggs shop yesterday to order a cue for me and Tim noted that my tips were too flat and said that was a factor in my draw. He also said a certain type of joint is better for the draw, which I ordered.

I think that the type of draw I use can be accurate too but requires practice just like the low and level. I also think that it is best to know both and practice both. IMO, there are times when a low and level cannot be used because there is not enough space on the table. If I had listened only to the instructor teaching this method and not to Larry also, there are times I could not have drawn the ball.

Low and level vs chop down? I say 'why not both'?

Laura

 

[pro-player]

That wouldn;t suprise me Pro, but I'm taking larry's world that he can draw 4 lengths, and I don't know about you but I couldn't beat that with a level cue. Like yourself I use a level cue whenever possible. For me its all about timing you can teach the basics in a forum but you need to see what the player is doing to really help.

Also one thing I forgot to mention was that the raised cue is also better for when the white is very close to the object ball.

Cheers

Craig

Unless the balls are almost touching, it is better to choke up closer to the joint of your cue with your grip hand.

 

[Raistlin]

I have just recently figured out my draw, now I am trying to get some control over it (no luck just yet, it is either 4 - 5 inches or table-length <grin>).

I think a poster earlier on said it best: practice. You will figure it out. A little drill that I used is to place cb and ob between the side pockets. I tried to pocket both with the one shot. This got me stroking straight, and fix my draw probs after about 2 hours solid.

Please note that I am not a great player, or even a good player. Just a guy that is working hard to become a little bit better than he is now!

I like to think that pool is a diverse enough game that everyone can have their own way of doing shots. One mans paradise is anothers hell? Or something like that.