Winning a 9-ball match when spotting a lot of racks

hobokenapa

hobokenapa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's just happened too often to me now to be a coincidence ... you spot 3 games to 8, or 4 games to 9 and after the match you lament how he got those lucky combos, 9-on-the breaks etc.. and how lucky a game 9-ball is, and how you never want to do handicapped 9-ball tournaments again.

Fact is, I must be playing the wrong strategy. I play the game the same way as if I was playing an even match against a B/A player. As the D player flies the 9-ball off 3 rails into a random pocket, or the 3-9 combo splits the corner pocket like a laser, I wonder what can I do to stop this? I'm thinking that perhaps if I have no clear run out or easy shot, I should immediately take a foul and move the 9 away from any danger? Or take a different kind of foul and position the balls so I can run out but the D player cannot? It is never a problem in 8-ball since you have to pot 8 balls to win, but in 9-ball, it just takes one shot. Any ideas on the best way to remove that one shot from the equation?
 
Hey Hoboken, what's up?

When you're giving up that many racks to a banger you've got to take care of that cueball. If you don't run out, you can't give him an opportunity to flail away at the cheese! Use the pushout to your advantage by getting rid of any hanging nine-balls, and make sure you play nice, high-percentage pool.

Also, remember that if you're doing what you're supposed to do, those lucky nine-balls aren't going to fall often enough to beat you in more than a few matches. The opponent is going to sell out more often than not.
 
You didn't say if you were losing handicapped matches more than half the time. It sounded like you were losing ALL of them.
Let's think about "handicapping". What is its purpose? To even the playing field. A perfect handicap would allow you and your opponent to each win half the matches.
There is a reason that some opponents get big handicaps... they need it!
Of course they are going to make more 3-9 combos than you... they are going to "ride the nine" a lot of the time. You won't remember the times they miss and leave you a wide open table to run out... you'll only remember the times that they make the "hail Mary" and it knocks you out of the tourney.

Anyways, when playing against someone who is getting a big handicap... expect the unexpected. Really try not to give an unforced "ball in hand". Anytime you give them a "ball in hand" don't be surprised to see the 9 ball flying around the table... there is a "ball in hand" combo available from almost anywhere on the table with any ball.

I guess my point is that you shouldn't expect to win every handicapped match...
Also, in 9 ball, if you're not at the table you can lose the game. It all evens out and the sooner you understand and accept that fact the sooner it won't bother you anymore.

Do you ever receive a "handicap"? If so, do you ever win the handicapped match?
 
well if you're losing with such spots, then you need to spot smaller

A spot in a money game is not designed to "even" out a match, a good spot will make your opponent only "think" the match is even, the art of spotting so to speak
 
With the handicapping its very easy for a D player to win if you don't place any pressure on him. They will more often than not just fly at the nine on every occasion. The D player has all but given up on trying to out play you so the normal logic of trying to run out on every turn goes out the window. Its been my experience that if you play really tight at least until you get the score to even. I wouldn't even let up and play loose once the score was tied.You should really bare down on these type of match ups. Its the only way you'll break the streak of luck from your opponents. About the only way I know to stop the luck is You have to play better on your end to keep putting pressure on your opponent. If your opponent was scared and intimidated he would seldom if ever get lucky. The luck comes from him feeling relaxed and not in danger of loosing. focus and treat each game as if it were hill hill and your shooting the case ball. Don't treat a D player like a D treat them like a A and I'm sure you will soon find this problem all but goes away....Dave
 
one thing i learned when spotting up alot of games or balls, you have to think about what youre leaving the other guy. For example you shoot a safe but you end up leaving the 9 close to a ball, or close to a pocket......you have to think about how youre going to leave the table ....not just on the next shot but for the entire game.
 
Lock 'em up tight

hobokenapa said:
It's just happened too often to me now to be a coincidence ... you spot 3 games to 8, or 4 games to 9 and after the match you lament how he got those lucky combos, 9-on-the breaks etc.. and how lucky a game 9-ball is, and how you never want to do handicapped 9-ball tournaments again.
As I worked my way up in the USPPA system, I was the recepient of some pretty big handicaps when playing better players. The most sucessful of them played a very conservative percentage game, with very good defense.

One tough thing to counter is the new player who is really enthusiastic, practicing and playing a lot, since their "paper" average usually lags significantly behind their ever-increasing capabilities. The other problem is that a lot of the lower rated players aren't necessarily ignorant about the game - they just have problems with focus, execution and consistency. Faced with a motivating situation like a 5-2 spot, they will go into "the zone" and run away with the match. Anyone can win two games of 9-ball.

Handicap tournaments are strange. A few years ago, there were two Hungarian brothers who joined the USPPA in S.F. They were given rather low entry ratings - something on the order of "30" - and were skilled enough to coast through their matches every week. At the time I was probably a "55", and I never, ever beat either one of them, spotting them one or two games on the wire in a race to 5. The way they played, I assumed that they were snooker players. Finally, one night I drew one of them in a larger USPPA tournament, and I was particularly inspired - opening the set by putting him in his chair for three racks. It was my turn to be in "the zone'. After the first two racks, the scorekeeper showed me the scoresheet with one inning on it and whispered "better cool it", but I just shrugged and told him that I really couldn't help it. I definitely wasn't going to spoil the best match I'd ever played by worrying about my average. The icing on the cake was after the match was over. This guy who had been taking advantage of his low handicap for months muttered "no way you're a "55". I just smiled, shook his hand and told him that he was no "40" either.

So, don't feel like the Lone Ranger, it seems like players with averages in the 30's are winning their fair share of the local USPPA tournaments. In a way, it's a good thing. New players are always needed to keep the sport alive, and winning is undeniably addictive.

Ken
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Shortside K said:
You didn't say if you were losing handicapped matches more than half the time.
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When I'm playing a good C+ player giving up 2 on 7, I do very well even though I expect this to be my hardest matchup. Perhaps that is because I know my opponent would run out an open table, I know it's a tough spot, and I really concentrate. They also play a similar game to me (run out the table)

Recently against C and below, I've lost every single match, and haven't really got close to winning. So it is far far from the 50% win rate it should be (hence the post)

I probably play too loose and casual when I can see my opponent can only run 3 or 4 balls, and this is my undoing.

If I'm 0-5 down in a race to 7 against an even player, I still feel I can come back and have done so. Down 3-8 in a race to 9 against a D player, I'm already probably exasperated by the way the 9s have gone in, and just in general with 9-ball. I'm already thinking about Straight Pool being a 'real' game!

A lot is mental on both sides. In an even race to 9 (non-handicapped events), I beat the same players 9-1 and 9-2. In handicapped events, they always get the five racks they need.

This only happens in 9-ball (for me) so by logic it must be my mental approach, and the tactics I employ that are flawed. I give opportunities to play that luck shot when if my defensive play and tactics were super tight, the opportunity for the luck shot would not exist.
 
hobokenapa said:
I probably play too loose and casual when I can see my opponent can only run 3 or 4 balls, and this is my undoing.
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This is the key. You have to be very vigilant when giving up games on the wire in a short race! You are relaxing too much and not working as hard as you would against the better players.

The advice that others have given you is excellent--remain focused, control the cueball and the table, and do not give up any easy shots where your opponents can just bang away and ride the 9! Depending on your skill level you may need to play even more conservatively than you might against the better players.

Handicapped tournaments in 9-ball remind me of poker in the sense that the less skilled players will definitely get lucky from time to time and win, and when they do it will be very frustrating. But if you stay focused and play smart in the long run you are bound to come out ahead.
 
Hey Hoboken,

One more thing that I forgot to mention when you're giving up these handicaps against cheddar hunters. You've absolutely got to take care of your break! In those situations, scratching on the break is absolutely deadly, becuase you just KNOW that the opponent is going to line up a combination that the pool gods have conveniently placed in front of a pocket to punish you for being so careless with the cue ball. As such, it may be wise to take a little speed off the cue ball if necessary, and concentrate on making that full hit on the one ball in order to take care of whitey. Obviously, scratching at any time poses the same risk, but the break is given special attention because it is the shot in which you are most likely to lose the cue ball.
 
You simply have to dismiss those games, that's all. There really is no point in dwelling on them any more than a moment or two. You're going to get your share of poor rolls and that's really what this is all about. If your opponent typically takes a whack at the 9-ball, you have to remember that this strategy is going to work against him in the end.

Improving your game should ALWAYS be your strategy and considering unconventional methods in tactics is never a bad idea however, remember that 99% of correct play is going to work against ALL players, not just professionals.

There are situations where you have to weigh your opponent's ability against the risks presented before you. For example, if your opponent has problems running more than a few balls, you're kicking at the 1-ball and the 9-ball is near a pocket, YES, you should definitely move the 9-ball away so he's forced to run the balls in sequence. However, that strategy isn't going to work against a player that routinely gets out.

Your goal is to try and attain control before your opponent does. The fact is, if you're debating a deliberate foul, you're in bad shape and against players of your own ability, you're going to lose. What you want to do is prevent the safety from occurring in the first place. Of course, as we all know, there are many things we can't prevent but if your opponent is beginning his innings by kicking and/or playing low-percentage safeties, you're not going to allow him the luxury of flying the 9-ball around the table.

Eventually, there comes a point where you get quite good at this and games-on-the-wire seem almost trivial. Either you run-out or you play safe. Low-rank players simply won't have the tools necessary to even see the end of the rack or give themselves fishing-position. Just keep focused on traditional play, always think about the correct percentage-play (against all players AND low-rank players) and understand that if you continue on this path, you're destined to improve.
 
hobokenapa said:
As the D player flies the 9-ball off 3 rails into a random pocket, or the 3-9 combo splits the corner pocket like a laser, I wonder what can I do to stop this?
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Call me a pessimist, but I've gotten to the point where I fully expect this when I'm giving up weight. If you want your D-player opponent to play like God, while getting luckier than hell at the same time, all you have to do is give up the maximum amount of weight you think you can give them. In my experience, that pretty much guarantees that they'll make at least 1 shot per rack that they have no business making, shots that they might not even have been aiming at in the first place, LOL, and unless you can consistently outrun the spot, this will give you serious heartburn.

Seriously, though, the way I deal with game spots is to play my opp. as if they are Earl Strickland until I get even in games. That doesn't mean to play scared, it just means to stay close to the percentages and try to minimize your mistakes. This may mean playing a safety (even if it's just leaving them a bank) instead of taking on that 70 percenter. You have to keep in mind that safeties that wouldn't work against a B player will probably work most of the time against a D player, so you can play a more conservative game overall until you work the odds more heavily in your favor.

You might also consider giving up the 7 or 8 (called, of course) and reducing the # of games on the wire.

Good luck!

Aaron
 
Aaron_S said:
Call me a pessimist, but I've gotten to the point where I fully expect this when I'm giving up weight. If you want your D-player opponent to play like God, while getting luckier than hell at the same time, all you have to do is give up the maximum amount of weight you think you can give them. In my experience, that pretty much guarantees that they'll make at least 1 shot per rack that they have no business making, shots that they might not even have been aiming at in the first place, LOL, and unless you can consistently outrun the spot, this will give you serious heartburn.

Seriously, though, the way I deal with game spots is to play my opp. as if they are Earl Strickland until I get even in games. That doesn't mean to play scared, it just means to stay close to the percentages and try to minimize your mistakes. This may mean playing a safety (even if it's just leaving them a bank) instead of taking on that 70 percenter. You have to keep in mind that safeties that wouldn't work against a B player will probably work most of the time against a D player, so you can play a more conservative game overall until you work the odds more heavily in your favor.

You might also consider giving up the 7 or 8 (called, of course) and reducing the # of games on the wire.

Good luck!

Aaron
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Exactly. Don't underestimate your opponent. You can't just leave a wide open shot and expect to always get back to the table...maybe his/her rating is low, but he/she is still playing in the tournament for a reason!

I take the gashing into account when giving up weight, it's part of the game. Last night I gave the 7-out and then the 5 & 7...try that sometime and you'll love your chances giving games on the wire!
 
Another thing ....

seymore15074 said:
Exactly. Don't underestimate your opponent. You can't just leave a wide open shot and expect to always get back to the table...maybe his/her rating is low, but he/she is still playing in the tournament for a reason!

I take the gashing into account when giving up weight, it's part of the game. Last night I gave the 7-out and then the 5 & 7...try that sometime and you'll love your chances giving games on the wire!
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You can NOT expect the game to go PERFECT for you when spotting someone. If you don't take that into account when bargaining about the spot, you WILL get burnt by it. You have to negotiate spots based on average performance, and what I call the X factor for your opponent.
The X factor are the unknown things that CAN OCCUR, like comboing in a 9 ball, you breaking, scratching, and leaving a simple combo, or them just banging away at the 9. Basically, it is the luck factor for your opponent.

And you guys that just spot away all the time, and readjust every set, and try to outrun the spot all the time are not very smart. For these
reasons:

1) It allows other players to clock your speed exactly.
2) If you are doing this for cheap sets, then someone will have you down pat for a bigger money set.
3) That is too much like gambling, 50-50, and I would much prefer to have the edge in the match because it is my money I am playing with.
4) Good gamblers never show their speed UNTIL the money is right, i.e.,
like $500 up a set.
5) and other reasons too numerous to mention.
 
Snapshot9 said:
And you guys that just spot away all the time, and readjust every set, and try to outrun the spot all the time are not very smart. For these
reasons:

1) It allows other players to clock your speed exactly.
2) If you are doing this for cheap sets, then someone will have you down pat for a bigger money set.
3) That is too much like gambling, 50-50, and I would much prefer to have the edge in the match because it is my money I am playing with.
4) Good gamblers never show their speed UNTIL the money is right, i.e.,
like $500 up a set.
5) and other reasons too numerous to mention.
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I love it. I've heard it a million times...I'm laying down for bigger money. Call it what you want, I will never lay down, I will always push myself to give more weight. That is why I play so well, I'm leaps and bounds better than when I played straight up with everyone without really challenging myself. This is the worst advice I have ever read, and I sincerely hope that no one takes it to heart...

I won all of the sets that I was talking about. They were cheap sets...bargain practice is what it is. Gambling doesn't interest me, anyways; I love the game.
 
Tim, you're too good of a player to let something like this get to you. Like you said earlier, it's all mental. No matter who you play, you always want to keep as much control of the table as possible and only offer up low percentage shots when you must end your inning.

I've seen you play lights-out against stronger opponents and there isn't any reason why you shouldn't be able to do the same with lesser ones. Don't get so down on yourself. Play smart, and don't dwell on the past.
 
weight is given up or taken NOT to make a match even but to make a match winnable. Both the giver of a spot and the taker of the spot are goin to the table thinking they have the edge. If your spotting these poor little bangers 4 on the wire in a race to 9 to make the game even I guarantee you their taking the spot with the intention of taking your money. Hmmm. 4 on the wire, race to 9. How do I reach you?
 
a few things to lessen the stress of weight IMO...

> underestimate YOUR game while overestimating the opponents game.

> don't give games on the wire....give a CALL ball spot....make em earn every game.

> get rid of the ego when matching up...there's nothing worse than making a bad game while barking, and realizing it while your racking AGAIN!


and to the guy who said he loves giving out weight, but doesn't gamble?...why bother?...it's easy to say you play great, and give out the world for nothing.
 
Hey Tim....Jude...what's going on guys?

Tim, in regards to the last post about giving a ball spot as opposed to games on the wire, be careful about that..Seems like you're playing some strong players regardless of handicap. So by giving them a ball spot, you increase their chances of running out successfully. You're better off giving a weaker opponent game spots and better players a ball spot. Think of it like this, if you are playing Jude or me, if we are getting the 7, we are going to get to the 8 then 9.....giving us a ball spot won't be much....but you give a C player the 7....his ability allows him to run 6-7 balls.....

Also, when giving out weight esp. ball spots, this is where playing safe wins/loses games more than anything...safeties are where games are won....

And if anyone is giving you a hard time....send Jude or me a quick email, and we'll come out and take care of them for you....................Christian
 
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