WNT, WPA and 2026

[jbart65]

I don’t listen to DogginIt much anymore because Molina rubs me wrong. Spends too much time bashing Matchroom, especially the person he tends to refer to as “she.” Embarrassing, really. The industry needs a better independent podcast, but then, is there really any demand for it? Probably not.

I do skip thru sometimes to hear what Mike Panozzo has to say. He is the editor in chief of Billiards Digest.

Panozzo said Shane Van Boening doesn’t like Europe and probably won’t go to the UK Open. He also suggested other top U.S. players might not go, either.

“The shine has worn off the pro players’ WNT love affair, for sure,” Panozzo said. “They are not treating it any differently than any other event that’s out there. ‘I’ll look at the dates, I’ll look at the costs and I’ll decide.’ “

Evidently, players who played in the PLP were expected to pay for their own hotel rooms. Typically MR has paid for rooms for players invited to invitationals.

If this is true, it would be a bad sign. Suggests the economics of pool, at least for MR, is more of a struggle than it already seems.

Lots of talk about why the Euro Open’s field of players was underwhelming. Yapp apparently said his family did not want him to travel to Bosnia once the Iran conflict erupted, but that wasn't all of it.

Carlo Biado stayed in Vegas after the Predator Las Vegas Open for Griffs and other events. SVB did, too. Sky and Tyler played in an Ultimate Pool event. The Ko brothers are largely gone from WNT and WPA events, it seems. Mickey Krause, a former European Open champ, skipped the event for heyball in China. Lots of top Europeans played at the European Open events sponsored by Predator.

Question is, was the European Open a one-off. The UK Open will tell us more.

Last year, Shane Van Boening skipped the UK Open. Gorst was missing due to sponsor obligations. Albin Ouschan was a no-show. A contingent of Pinoys signed up, but most ended up not going. Chua was among the missing.

Still, most top players attended. Skyler and Tyler also showed up, along with another 10 or so Americans.

***

Panozzo’s comments suggest future MR events won’t have the same stacked fields they did a few years ago. One reason is Predator has stepped up its game.

Predator typically includes several events, giving the players a chance to make money in one or more tournaments. So they get more bang for their buck at Predator events.

Panozzo also said the WNT no longer seems like a tour to him. He didn’t really specify why, but he did point to late scheduling and alluded to the qualification process for Mosconi and Reyes.

“It’s gotten hard to call it a tour. Matchroom to me at this point has turned into a series of events,” he said. “It’s mix and match between WNT events, and WPA events, and Predator events.”

 

[SBC]

We have one player who can compete with the scores of top European pros....and he is eyeing retirement.

When they made 9 ball more international on WNT the predictable outcome was only Shane would be the only American that could make a living at it.

 

[jbart65]

In the long run, I've begun to question whether the WNT survives.

All the new events being put on by Matchroom and Predator are great for the players, but I am not sure the stingy economics of pool can support both entities as things now stand.

TV revenue is pitiful. Dittos for subscription revenue. The same coterie of sponsors largely supports Predator and the WNT. And almost all are associated directly with the game (Simonis, Aramith, Diamond, Rasson, Cuetec, etc)

Neither side is bringing in lots of new sponsors not already tied to the game. So the two entities are drawing money from the same small pool.

In virtually every other major sport, one entity dominates or rules supreme. Can pool really be different?

Predator arguably is in better position now. Its prize money now often tops Matchroom events, aside from the US Open and WPC, and it supports a broader spectrum of the sport: 8, 9 and 10 ball, women’s pool, mixed events and team events.

The stepped-up competition from Predator has weakened the fields of WNT events and taken away part of the story MR sells to sponsors and advertisers.

Two years ago, MR seemed convinced it could sideline the WPA and Predator and become the new kingpin of the sport. That’s no longer the case.

I don’t know how the WNT and MR succeed, but I think it’s clear their strategy has to evolve. Recognizing the staying power of Predator and working actively to coordinate schedules would certainly be a good place to start.

The sport can’t reach bigger and bigger heights so long as Matchroom and Predator are at odds.

 

[jbart65]

We have one player who can compete with the scores of top European pros....and he is eyeing retirement.

When they made 9 ball more international on WNT the predictable outcome was only Shane would be the only American that could make a living at it.

True enough, but SVB is going to age out of the sport in the next three to five years. The American pool scene was going to move on anyway. Either young new stars will emerge. Or they won't.

 

[skip100]

Maybe they could merge. That’s what usually happens when both sides are looking at the situation rationally.

 

[jbart65]

Maybe they could merge. That’s what usually happens when both sides are looking at the situation rationally.

The two businesses are too different. A maker of cue and cue products and a media broadcast company.

Matchroom would never get into the product-making business. The revenue and margins are too small.

If Matchroom did decide to exit the pool business some day, it conceivably could sell the rights of the US Open, WPC and Mosconi/Reyes to Predator. Then Predator would dominate the pro scene entirely.

Predator is a small company, though. Best info I could find suggests $5 million a year in revenue.

Matchroom generates from $220 million to $280 million a year in revenue based on public info I could find. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of that is tied to pool.

 

[jbart65]

Maybe they could merge. That’s what usually happens when both sides are looking at the situation rationally.

The business models are very different, too.

Matchroom sells tickets to its events. It runs a paid subscription viewing service. And it has scattered deals with TV stations around the world. It's trying to make money, or at least generate more money.

Predator generally doesn't sell tickets - it opens its event free to viewers and airs them for free on YouTube. Nor does it have any TV deals at all.

And yet, Predator is shelling out a competitive amount of money. The prize fund for the men's 8-ball world title in St louis in early April is paying out $300,000 - more than what the WNT paid for the Euro Open, the upcoming Florida Open and the Florida Open.

Where is Predator getting the money? The company does not appear to be trying to earn profits on airing pool tournaments. It can't afford to lose money, either. So it has events with smaller fields and it keeps its production simple to minimize costs. The YouTube video quality is good, but these are no-frills events.

 

[garczar]

You seem awfully concerned with what happens in pro pool. I watch what's on but could not care less about any of the behind the scenes machinations. I used to semi-care but its not worth the effort. You/me/anyone else can't change a thing about pool politics so why bother.

 

[skip100]

The two businesses are too different. A maker of cue and cue products and a media broadcast company.

Matchroom would never get into the product-making business. The revenue and margins are too small.

If Matchroom did decide to exit the pool business some day, it conceivably could sell the rights of the US Open, WPC and Mosconi/Reyes to Predator. Then Predator would dominate the pro scene entirely.

Predator is a small company, though. Best info I could find suggests $5 million a year in revenue.

Matchroom generates from $220 million to $280 million a year in revenue based on public info I could find. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of that is tied to pool.

Even better that the two companies have different skill sets. They each handle the part they are good at.

 

[jbart65]

I have mixed views on Emily Frazer's leadership. She's dedicated. She has a ton of energy. She's obsessed with making the tour a success.

Yet she is trying to popularize the sport and make the WNT succeed by sheer force of her personality. It won’t work. It doesn’t work in any sport.

If anything, leadership by personality tends to divide people. Such leaders come to be seen as playing favorites. WNT would achieve more success by professionalizing its entire operation.

With Predator, I don't know who to credit - or to blame!

Consistency is key. Consistency (and early release) of scheduling. Consistency of major events. Consistency in getting a spot in an invitational.

Matchroom has erred in my view by how it metes out spots for the Mosconi and Reyes. If you want players to play in most big tour events, you need to give them a reason.

The Mosconi should award the top four spots based on points. One wild card is fine. Two is too many. The event could be expanded to six players.

The World Team concept for the Reyes sucks. Make the opponent the US or Europe. The top four also qualify on points. not the jerry-rigged system used now.

Simple truth is, selection has come to be seen as political because it is. That hurts MR's credibility with players and cheapens the events.

Keeping Josh off Team Europe two years ago was one thing. Keeping Filler and SVB off Team World was another. Everyone saw through that.

 

[Lowell]

I have mixed views on Emily Frazer's leadership. She's dedicated. She has a ton of energy. She's obsessed with making the tour a success.

Yet she is trying to popularize the sport and make the WNT succeed by sheer force of her personality. It won’t work. It doesn’t work in any sport.

If anything, leadership by personality tends to divide people. Such leaders come to be seen as playing favorites. WNT would achieve more success by professionalizing its entire operation.

With Predator, I don't know who to credit - or to blame!

Consistency is key. Consistency (and early release) of scheduling. Consistency of major events. Consistency in getting a spot in an invitational.

Matchroom has erred in my view by how it metes out spots for the Mosconi and Reyes. If you want players to play in most big tour events, you need to give them a reason.

The Mosconi should award the top four spots based on points. One wild card is fine. Two is too many. The event could be expanded to six players.

The World Team concept for the Reyes sucks. Make the opponent the US or Europe. The top four also qualify on points. not the jerry-rigged system used now.

Simple truth is, selection has come to be seen as political because it is. That hurts MR's credibility with players and cheapens the events.

Keeping Josh off Team Europe two years ago was one thing. Keeping Filler and SVB off Team World was another. Everyone saw through that.

I will say that the Predator events are more fun to watch (probably an unpopular opinion on here)

I like the set format, the shootout, the hand racks, the blue cloth (vs cold looking grey), and the camera angles.

 

[jbart65]

You seem awfully concerned with what happens in pro pool. I watch what's on but could not care less about any of the behind the scenes machinations. I used to semi-care but its not worth the effort. You/me/anyone else can't change a thing about pool politics so why bother.

Concerned, no. My life will be fine with or without pro pool.

Why bother? Why not? The subject obviously interests me, and, well, this is a forum to talk pool. My kids are grown up, and evidently I have a lot of time on my hands.

Besides, if we only talked about things we could actually change, we wouldn't have anything to talk about on this board!

 

[jbart65]

Even better that the two companies have different skill sets. They each handle the part they are good at.

I covered business as a journalist for a long time. Rare the media company that sells products, too. The business models are just far too different. Disney is the only one I can think of.

 

[SA96]

I have tickets to the UK Open, so would be gutted not to see SVB there.

If Matchroom can't make pool work, then pool's chances of reaching the levels of snooker and darts will die.

No offence to Predator, but their events are free on YouTube and have a few hundred people in attendance. That is not a sustainable business model, and I would love to know how they can keep putting up generous prize money.

 

[MattPoland]

I think it will be harder to get all the very best in the same place. US Open. World Championships. And then after that they have options on where to go. But it’s tricky because even if every field isn’t the most prestige all start field it can be, there’s so much world talent out there that each field is also not a cakewalk for anyone. So I’m still on the fence of whether this is a problem or not for players and fans. There’s a lot barrels to fire out at the calendar for everyone and not always be playing just to get at the bottom tier of the money. It’s probably not great for MR trying to sell prestige and broadcasting. And who knows what’ll happen if a US leg of the “tour” gets more robust and sequenced. It might just get to the point where regional talent plays regional events and only a handful play everything and only a few events draw everyone.

 

[skip100]

Matchroom runs the events, Predator brings the cash. This isn’t that complicated.

 

[VVP]

All reasonable posts by jbart65 so far. Mike Panozzo is one of the smartest mind in pool so whatever he says is almost gospel.

I couldn't care less if WNT disappears off the map. Some other entity will fill its spot. Matchroom spelled its doom by getting into a spat with Predator and CSI, entities with major business-wise brain power.

For some crazy reason, Matchroom felt that 9 ball could dominate the pool sport because it was initially goaded by players and its fans. Imagine requiring people to sign up to follow scores in its tournaments. .. this is what generates interest in the tournaments so it has to be one of the most idiotic thing Matchroom did.

Turned out that it was a major blunder to get into a fight with the WPA because Matchroom thought that the WPA was toothless. They got destroyed in the Vietnam Open where they couldn't fill the field after the WPA threatened to sanction players and was warned beforehand by the WPA president that they (Matchroom) should not mess around in Vietnam.

Turns out that Matchroom couldn't fill the fields in recent US Open and European Open so it clearly does not have the drawing power it delusioned itself into believing. Obviously players are beginning to notice and are now putting their interests over just supporting Matchroom.
BTW, the World 9 ball is paid by the Arabs so no kudos for that.

Predator is spending $3.5 million in prize money this year so obviously it is doing the right thing to draw sponsorship ... free YouTube has to be the main draw to get that kind of sponsorship. No wonder Predator is starting to attract all the major players again. It's just excellent business sense, that's all.

 

[jbart65]

There’s a lot barrels to fire out at the calendar for everyone and not always be playing just to get at the bottom tier of the money. It’s probably not great for MR trying to sell prestige and broadcasting.

That's the crux of the matter. Can Matchroom make the WNT a successful, moneymaking tour given the recent path of events?

A few years ago, the goal was to bring all the best players in the world into a single tour. It worked, but only briefly. Now the WNT faces stiffer competition from an industry powerhouse that is not seeking to be a major commercial success.

And who knows what’ll happen if a US leg of the “tour” gets more robust and sequenced. It might just get to the point where regional talent plays regional events and only a handful play everything and only a few events draw everyone.

Matchroom and Frazer recognize this reality. That's why they have created more tour events around the world. They know not every player can afford to travel the world for all the big events.

By my count, about 40 of the world's best players travel to most of the biggest events each year. Even fewer, between 10 and 20, get to almost all of them. In the recent European Open, 13 of the top 20 players in the world attended.

 

[skogstokig]

I don’t listen to DogginIt much anymore because Molina rubs me wrong. Spends too much time bashing Matchroom, especially the person he tends to refer to as “she.” Embarrassing, really. The industry needs a better independent podcast, but then, is there really any demand for it? Probably not.

I do skip thru sometimes to hear what Mike Panozzo has to say. He is the editor in chief of Billiards Digest.

Panozzo said Shane Van Boening doesn’t like Europe and probably won’t go to the UK Open. He also suggested other top U.S. players might not go, either.

“The shine has worn off the pro players’ WNT love affair, for sure,” Panozzo said. “They are not treating it any differently than any other event that’s out there. ‘I’ll look at the dates, I’ll look at the costs and I’ll decide.’ “

Evidently, players who played in the PLP were expected to pay for their own hotel rooms. Typically MR has paid for rooms for players invited to invitationals.

If this is true, it would be a bad sign. Suggests the economics of pool, at least for MR, is more of a struggle than it already seems.

Lots of talk about why the Euro Open’s field of players was underwhelming. Yapp apparently said his family did not want him to travel to Bosnia once the Iran conflict erupted, but that wasn't all of it.

Carlo Biado stayed in Vegas after the Predator Las Vegas Open for Griffs and other events. SVB did, too. Sky and Tyler played in an Ultimate Pool event. The Ko brothers are largely gone from WNT and WPA events, it seems. Mickey Krause, a former European Open champ, skipped the event for heyball in China. Lots of top Europeans played at the European Open events sponsored by Predator.

Question is, was the European Open a one-off. The UK Open will tell us more.

Last year, Shane Van Boening skipped the UK Open. Gorst was missing due to sponsor obligations. Albin Ouschan was a no-show. A contingent of Pinoys signed up, but most ended up not going. Chua was among the missing.

Still, most top players attended. Skyler and Tyler also showed up, along with another 10 or so Americans.

***

Panozzo’s comments suggest future MR events won’t have the same stacked fields they did a few years ago. One reason is Predator has stepped up its game.

Predator typically includes several events, giving the players a chance to make money in one or more tournaments. So they get more bang for their buck at Predator events.

Panozzo also said the WNT no longer seems like a tour to him. He didn’t really specify why, but he did point to late scheduling and alluded to the qualification process for Mosconi and Reyes.

“It’s gotten hard to call it a tour. Matchroom to me at this point has turned into a series of events,” he said. “It’s mix and match between WNT events, and WPA events, and Predator events.”

molina is pissy because of access. he's not really helping that, acting as he does.

count me as someone who also thinks WNT and WPA should cooperate more. a joint tournament wouldn't be impossible.

 

[Scrunge19]

Panozzo’s point about the WNT feeling like a handful of events vs a true tour is spot on in my opinion. They need to do a better job of finding locations that fit for their format and then lock them in for longer, more consistent term. How can you expect players/fans to commit to something when the details aren’t ironed out well in advance.

At this point, it feels like Matchroom’s focus is 50% promoting pool/the players and 50% promoting Emily Frazer. It’s embarrassing at how much Emily inserts herself into the “tour.”