no argument just fact. Dave has covered this at length. initial squirt line/angle is same regardless of speed. harder shot will stay on that line longer, soft shot will swerve back depending on speed,cloth,conditions. https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/effects/ #2: squirt does NOT depend on speed. start line is determined by tip offset.
Wood Shaft v CF
- Thread starter lfigueroa
- Start date
dendweller
Well-known member
I know, I've read it on here about 50 times, still like to see it proved.
dendweller
Well-known member
So I took a look at that site, I get the squirt argument, but I believe you said harder strokes don't produce more spin, is that in the link somewhere and I missed it? Thanks
Interesting...
I can't say I ever noticed something like that directly with a wood shaft... but maybe when you are warming up or first start shooting you are subconsciously adjusting to a different environment.
dendweller
Well-known member
I was hoping for high speed video, that stuff is way over my head. Just doesn't make sense to me that if you just bunt a ball as opposed to giving it a good stroke, the rotation of the cue ball would be the same. I'm not expert though.
High speed videos aren’t proofs, they are empirical experiments. Experiments are done to validate theories based on mathematical proofs. You kind of need to understand the math in order to absorb the proof.
Alternatively the proof can be simplified into an explanation, but by doing so it opens up interpretation errors.
What the proof says is that spin is proportional to tip offset times linear speed divided by the square of the ball radius. The impulse energy generated by a cue strike is localized. The same proportion of energy will be transferred to the ball regardless of the duration of the impulse because of the conservation of momentum. Therefore, for the same tip contact point, it is physically impossible to generate a different angular momentum (spin) to linear velocity (speed) ratio without changing the effective end mass of your cue, because energy can not be created or destroyed.
smiling_Hans
Well-known member
It pains me to say this as someone that grew up way before carbon shafts. They are good professional equipment.
History will show they are effective and examples are fishing rods and tennis rackets that have converted to carbon long before the billiards industry.
Why sad? I think custom cues will start to produce horrible shafts in anticipation the new owners will swap them for carbon shafts.
A guy at the pool hall has a monster Manzino 7K+ and he doesn't play with it. He said its too nice but willing to throw a carbon shaft on it and bring it out for a few session. I told him its blasphemy. LOL
To be fair those Manzino shafts are bigger than what he is use to since he has converted to carbon fulltime.
History will show they are effective and examples are fishing rods and tennis rackets that have converted to carbon long before the billiards industry.
Why sad? I think custom cues will start to produce horrible shafts in anticipation the new owners will swap them for carbon shafts.
A guy at the pool hall has a monster Manzino 7K+ and he doesn't play with it. He said its too nice but willing to throw a carbon shaft on it and bring it out for a few session. I told him its blasphemy. LOL
To be fair those Manzino shafts are bigger than what he is use to since he has converted to carbon fulltime.
dendweller
Well-known member
what ratio. Does the spin it self, as in revolutions per second change with a harder hit?
So, you postulate that if the cue is moving forward at 1 MPH (slow) when it makes contact with CB 3mm off center
that that CB will have the same spin as when the cue is moving at 10 MPH (fast) contacting the very same point of contact ??
I doubt it.
The CB may have the same ratio of forward velocity to rotational velocity, but it will not be rotating at the same rate.
The ratio only changes with tip offset and ball radius. For the same tip position and same radius, any shot power won’t change the ratio.
This makes sense because where else is the impulse energy going to go within 2ms?
I think people who say they can feel a difference due to tip softness are just feeling the acoustic signature of the entire pool cue vibrating based on the signal filtering of that tip. Not the hit time itself. Go ahead and try to sense 2ms of anything. Not even a flash of light can be detected by your eyes.
It is a case of not understanding physics and confusing actualities with folklore. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean you can’t not believe it.
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dendweller
Well-known member
Yes or no, will it rotate the same number of times per second with a really soft verses a really hard stroke. I understand those two words pretty well.
speed/spin ratio is what i'm talking about. https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/spin-speed-ratio/ i don't know about the actual rpm's of hard/soft hit spin shots. there's no way i know of to spin a ball in place, its always going to be moving forward and that's where the speed/spin ratio comes in. it would seem to me that a faster moving cue would result in more deflection thus less spin rpm's. I think what the REAL question here is this: does any of this shit have anything to do with actually playing? Played for 40yrs and only place this esoteric stuff shows up is here. Maybe super-nerd nat can tell us with his magic robot cueball.
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I played with a wooden Meucci Black Dot for years. I succumbed to the fiber craze and bought a Meucci CF Pro. They play almost the same. The CF was a little lighter so the balance had changed, resulting in reintroducing an occasional miscues. I switched back to the Black Dot and have been satisfied ever since. Humidity? I don't notice any difference. The CF stays in the bag "just in case" I lose a tip.
You must assume you are hitting the exact same spot on the cue ball....
No.
It will rotate with more times per second with a hard stroke vs a soft stroke.
If you divide rotations per second by miles per hour, you get a number.
No matter how hard you hit it, that number will remain the same.
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"Rotation" can mean different things. For instance: (1) the number of rotations per time passed, and (2) the number of rotations per distance traveled. The important one in pool is #2, because changes in rotations per distance traveled (speed/spin ratio) change the angle off a rail (the "spin effect"), but changes in rotations per time passed (RPMs) don't. That's because the angle change off the rail is determined by the ratio of rebound acceleration to sideways acceleration (speed-to-spin), which doesn't change with different RPMs alone.
pj
chgo
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Studying details using physics can help you play better. For example it is physically proven that swoop strokes do not add any significant “extra” spin to the ball due sideways motion of the tip. It may help get the tip further out on the cue ball for that particular player, but the same thing can be done by deliberately aiming for that spot rather than do something dynamic that depends on timing.
It is worse to use a swoop stroke rather than a straight stroke since a swoop stroke just adds variables for no good reason.
Therefore it is better for your game, and better to teach others, to avoid it.
Just because you played pool for 40 years doesn’t mean that you know everything from experience. It isn’t how the world works. Pool is the least precise discipline in billiards and there is a lot you can convince yourself you can get away that you can’t in any other type of billiards game.
smiling_Hans
Well-known member
So I recently played extensively with a few carbon shafts and I’m not sure if I will convert. The reason being price.
They are so light that most owners haven’t figured out to balance their cue. Most I have shot with were back heavy and I feel like it’s aiming high. With time I can correct this by moving the weight forward or swapping it out depending how your cue is constructed.
They are so light that most owners haven’t figured out to balance their cue. Most I have shot with were back heavy and I feel like it’s aiming high. With time I can correct this by moving the weight forward or swapping it out depending how your cue is constructed.
I see that words have been said here. The words themselves are of minimal import. The words must be experienced rather than scrutinized. And these words here....well, they certainly certainly do exist.
SeniorTom
Well-known member
I own two Rhino carbon fiber shafts, one for my plane cue, and one for my brake cue. They both cost me under $200 each. Where can you get a decent wood shaft for under $200? There are some nice wood shafts Cuetec makes for their Avid Era cues for about $150, but for about $40 more you can get a Rhino carbon fiber cue.