World Series Of Poker Stats

[nfty9er]

Sorry

What about playing on a "third party" internet poker site from inside a pool room???? ....Kind of like a Internet Cafe establishment....

If you are going to profit from it, it is illegal. You are still on US soil. It has never been illegal to gamble at home that is one of the reasons the government cannot crack down on online poker from the privacy of your home.

 

[Muxy]

In fact Chris Moneymaker yes is a one hit wonder but Greg Raymer in fact can play Hold’Em. Currently Greg turned 3500 chips into 45k on the TV table at these years WSOP. Raymer has posted at 2+2(poker forums) for awhile and is actually accomplished Poker player.

 

[coreyh]

In fact Chris Moneymaker yes is a one hit wonder but Greg Raymer in fact can play Hold’Em. Currently Greg turned 3500 chips into 45k on the TV table at these years WSOP. Raymer has posted at 2+2(poker forums) for awhile and is actually accomplished Poker player.

It's really in the poker industry's interest to keep the myth that Raymer was a one-hit wonder alive. It keeps the "anyone can win" mentality going that causes folks to take up the game in the first place. Also, there are very few amateur players plunking down $10k for their entry fees in this year's main event. Several thousand of the entrants won their seats via the Internet, with Party Poker (I think) sending 1,100. The "anyone can win" mentality is not causing many to plunk down $10k, but it's getting tens of thousands to spend lesser amounts on satellite tournaments to play their way in.

It needs to be noted too that the 800+ entrants in 2003 was a monstrous number at the time and followed several years of growth. Poker was already booming, and the hole-card-cam, internet poker, and Chris Moneymaker caused that boom to become an explosion.

Unfortunately, not much of this translates to pool. Pool's closest template for success is still bowling and the PBA.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,
Pool is skill with some luck and poker is luck with some skill. That being said, I was trying to make a point that MAYBE the pool world could learn something from the success of poker as a business plan. Just this one tournament in 3 years has gone from 800 players to 5600 players and a huge television exposure/contract. I am going to go out on a limb saying that more people played poker at least one time last year than pool. There are more websites for poker too. There are tons of books on poker and very few on pool. The poker world must be doing something right. Pool should examine it and transform it over to their world.
I have thought about it and I have discovered the biggest problem with pool. It is the fact that these pool players, whether a pro or some short stop, think just because they can draw their ball they can also run a business. Most pool rooms are run by somebody that began playing pool and they have no business sense at all. They are out to make the quick buck and if they go busted, well they have been busted before. Pool needs businessmen. Period. How is this for an example.....no, I better not. People seem to get upset when you call them out. Well, I can't help myself...Briefly, a pool room here is currently closed because the owner forgot to renew the liquor license. Enough said.
Poker is all about bluffing and hustling but the people that run the tournaments are honest in the payouts. Right on the World Series of Poker website they list all money from entry fees, payouts and what the house took. In pool, when they list a payout on this site about a pool tournament they add in the calcutta money to make it look bigger, never tell you how many players or what the entry fees were. Why....cause they are ashamed to say. Can anyone quickly tell me how much it costs to play in the World Pool Championships and how much the winner gets? I bet more can tell you it costs $10,000 to play in the WSOP. More people on the street can tell you who Phil Helmuth or Chris Moneymaker is than Efren Reyes or Johnny Archer.
Hopefully, someone in the pool world (and not some player who thinks that he is mightier than someone else cause he plays better) will come up with an idea that works like poker has. Jude, I think that by saying poker is not like pool is close minded and won't get anywhere. An apple is not like an orange but it takes a lot of the same elements to make them grow. I am not being rude. Just letting people know they should take a look at something else that has turned into a success and doesn't seem to be slowing down.

Pool can never ever ever follow the lead of poker for some very basic reasons.

1. You can play poker online. This will never be true for pool.
2. Any beginner in poker can beat any professional at any given time. You don't even need to know what you're doing. That's simply not the case with pool.


The fact is, poker will always draw suckers because they get a taste of winning early AND they have an easily accessable venue (their home computer). You have to travel for pool. Any moron can see the difference in an A player and a D player AND immediate frustrations will quickly turn them away. You're just never going to draw the numbers the WSOP draws. It's simply impossible. Really, there's almost nothing in common with pool and poker and thankfully, there never will be. I love poker because in a matter of months, I've become reasonably competent. However, I also love pool because it's taken me several years to become reasonably good.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This is one of the truest things I have ever seen posted here.

Almost all of the parts of our industry are ran by pool players (or at least people who would not be doing these things if it weren't for their interest in pool).

The majority of our magazines are ran by pool players. BD on the other hand is ran by a publishing company that makes 4 different monthly mags and a quarterly mag. Is it any coincidence that no one complains about not getting their BD in the mail?

Our men's (and women's) organizations are ran mostly by pool players.

Both the BCA and ACS league systems are ran by pool players (I couldn't tell you how many of the other leagues are ran by pool players).

While some of the entities are very successful, how much more successful could they be if they were ran by non-players?

Mike

Yes, you're right but unfortunately, every single time big-business steps in and runs a poolroom, we poolplayers immediately say "How come you don't appreciate us anymore" and look to the richest of all poolplayers to open a room so that we can get free coffee and complain about the music. LOL

Seriously, how many of us are regulars at Dave & Busters or Jillian's? We don't go there! Those aren't poolrooms! If you're a serious businessman, you'll steer clear of this business! So unfortunately, the only people who will ever want to open rooms that we'd enjoy are those that would also enjoy them. It is the nature of the beast.

 

[SonjaBlue03]

But the last two years it was one of the 'If I just get lucky' players that won.

Mike

I will agree that Moneymaker was a long shot. . but Greg Raymer had many cashes at the WSOP before winning the ME in 2004.

Have they announced the line up for the 2005 Tournament of Champions yet??

Oh, the best way to follow the WSOP info (for anyone that doesn't know) www.cardplayer.com has live updates all day, including chip counts, etc.

Amanda

 

[sniper]

Regarding playing pool vs dealing poker...Why not do both???...You know life is all about the 3 P's ..(P.P.P)......two make money...one takes money...I'll let you figure out what that one is....

LMAO Thanks for the laugh on my Friday morning!

 

[JustPlay]

Poker is the in thing right now.....It takes very little skill to play and thats whats so attractive about it.......


What I always wonder is.....How these guys that have no clue how to run a business get the money to start one in the first place???? Thats the real trick.....

Insurance scams, Relatives and gambling...

 

[SonjaBlue03]

Lee Watkinson is the early chip leader after the first day 1 session.
$ 140,000+

Amanda

 

[nfty9er]

Correction

I will agree that Moneymaker was a long shot. . but Greg Raymer had many cashes at the WSOP before winning the ME in 2004.

Have they announced the line up for the 2005 Tournament of Champions yet??

Oh, the best way to follow the WSOP info (for anyone that doesn't know) www.cardplayer.com has live updates all day, including chip counts, etc.

Amanda

pokerpages.com is a much better site. They have listed every player left from first day and chip count. Try it you'll like it.

 

[PrinsNick]

It's really in the poker industry's interest to keep the myth that Raymer was a one-hit wonder alive. It keeps the "anyone can win" mentality going that causes folks to take up the game in the first place. Also, there are very few amateur players plunking down $10k for their entry fees in this year's main event. Several thousand of the entrants won their seats via the Internet, with Party Poker (I think) sending 1,100. The "anyone can win" mentality is not causing many to plunk down $10k, but it's getting tens of thousands to spend lesser amounts on satellite tournaments to play their way in.

It needs to be noted too that the 800+ entrants in 2003 was a monstrous number at the time and followed several years of growth. Poker was already booming, and the hole-card-cam, internet poker, and Chris Moneymaker caused that boom to become an explosion.

Unfortunately, not much of this translates to pool. Pool's closest template for success is still bowling and the PBA.

Very true. Forget about everything else--the sole driving force behind the poker snowball is that "anyone-can-win" mindset. It is the same mindset which has enabled PartyPoker.com to have 50,000 players playing online at the same time. There is very little to be taken out of poker's book that can be modelled on pool, because of the differnces between the two actual games. For instance, it is not that easy to have 10 players play at the same table at the same time... you need a lot more space--I can't imagine trying to run a pool tournament with 5,000 players (although I would welcome such a thing if it ever took place).

Anyway, I'm not saying there is nothing to be learned from the big poker explosion, but it is not as easy as Watchez makes it sound. No amateur pool player is ever going to shell out $10,000 to play in a tournament where they may have to face Efren Reyes in a head-to-head match. And even if we could create huge online pool tournament sites, it is nowhere close to the same thing as real pool. I'd like to see an online pool player equivalent to Chris Moneymaker--someone who has hardly no real-life experience--win the US Open 9 Ball Championships.

Take away the luck, and let's see who puts up $10K. Take away online poker sites, and a huge chunk of this year's WSOP entrants would not be there. For the record, 20% of the entrants qualified on Pokerstars.com. Must be a similar figure for Partypoker. There is no way to compare poker to pool, except if we have a major game format change to turn pool into a crapshoot. Raise your hand if you want that...

 

[watchez]

I know we have some room owners here. If there is interest, I will set up a password protected area for them to discuss things.

Mike

Would Teacherman be allowed to join this private group?

 

[watchez]

Yes, you're right but unfortunately, every single time big-business steps in and runs a poolroom, we poolplayers immediately say "How come you don't appreciate us anymore" and look to the richest of all poolplayers to open a room so that we can get free coffee and complain about the music. LOL

Seriously, how many of us are regulars at Dave & Busters or Jillian's? We don't go there! Those aren't poolrooms! If you're a serious businessman, you'll steer clear of this business! So unfortunately, the only people who will ever want to open rooms that we'd enjoy are those that would also enjoy them. It is the nature of the beast.

Jude,
You fail to get my point. I will try one more time. You need to look at pool from the business standpoint not as a player who loves the activity. Have you ever gone bowling? Do you ever meet the 'owner' of a bowling alley? Most likely not. And bowling has been very successful on TV and as a league sport. I know your argument is going to be that bowling is easy and fat guys can do it. Well fat guys play pool too. I can almost guarantee you that the owner of the bowling alley is not an 'A' quality bowler but he is a 'double A' quality business man. Bowling alleys and pool rooms are similiar...they struggle for day business, rely heavily on leagues to get them thru lean hours, and are willing to stay open late to maximum their coverage of all customers. Oh, and most bowling alleys don't have some kid or owner behind the counter more concerned on how he can beat you out of $100 than he is in getting your repeat business. I almost bought a pool room 5 years ago and immediately my partner & I decided that if we were involved we would NEVER gamble with a customer. A bad landlord situation stopped me from getting involved but that is another story. How bout golf? Another big time money maker with huge television contract. But go to your local course, and yes they have a pro there for lessons, etc. but the pro is not the owner. And I bet there are more golf courses where you live than pool rooms. A golf course is happy if they get 200 customers a day. I think a pool room owner would be happy with the same. The average score of a golfer in the USA is 97. Not very proficient. But the golfer is happy if he played on a reasonably nice course, with friendly help, and he was treated like a person, not a sucker. Will this ever be true for pool if the players think they can continue to be owners?
I owned a GNC (General Nutrition Center) store for 7 1/2 years and was one of the top 5 stores in my division during that time. My partner and I changed GNC's countrywide policy by getting approval to open up in a small town and being successful. Guess what....I didn't know the first thing about vitamins, herbs, sport supplements, etc. when I started but spent previous years talking with people and friends that I thought were good businessmen to learn how to run a business. Getting to know the products was just book smarts.....but in the 7 1/2 years I was there, I never took vitamins or supplements myself. Wasn't something I was really interested in. And I don't particularly look like I work out. But each day I was able to sell the products to customers that wanted them. Get the analogy here...POOL ROOMS DON'T NEED POOL PLAYERS AS OWNERS.
I could go on and on.....I have a friend who is male that owns a very successful women's clothing store. Obviously, he doesn't wear the clothes himself but he is still a great businessman.
I don't know how to solve it. I am trying to start with Jude's mind but it probably isn't working. Maybe Brunswick should start charging $15,000 for a gold crown and then it would take a real businessman and not some shortstop to open a pool room.

 

[JustPlay]

It's really in the poker industry's interest to keep the myth that Raymer was a one-hit wonder alive. It keeps the "anyone can win" mentality going that causes folks to take up the game in the first place. Also, there are very few amateur players plunking down $10k for their entry fees in this year's main event. Several thousand of the entrants won their seats via the Internet, with Party Poker (I think) sending 1,100. The "anyone can win" mentality is not causing many to plunk down $10k, but it's getting tens of thousands to spend lesser amounts on satellite tournaments to play their way in......

.....Unfortunately, not much of this translates to pool. Pool's closest template for success is still bowling and the PBA.

Pool closest relative is bowling, that is definitly true. Coreyh, your right, alot of those amature entrances are from online events. But, in other posts, I have stated that some bigger pool events (like the US Open) should increase there entry fees that would add to the prize funds and take some of the pressure off the tournmant host to solicit for sponsorship. Most of the events events at the world series of poker are $1000 upto $5000 entry fee events and anywhere from 500-2000 participants show up to pay those fees out of their own pockets. And to top that off only 10% of the field gets paid the other 90% get zero.


What is great about poker is that all of the prize funds are derived from the entry fees and no sponsorship for added fees are not neccassary. Professional pool if anything should at least go in this direction, where the players entry fees pay for the majority of the prize funds. Yea, I know pool will always need sponsorship and most pool players are broke, but, I am only talking about "professional" events only. Look at AZbilliards top 25 players list. I am sure all of those players can afford a $1000 entry fee into the US Open.

Then imagine all of the those other professional players around the world comming here to play in these events since the prize funds are larger...Professional pool should start to rely on itself and stop wishing for some magical sponsorship to save it. It has time and time again failed in the past. Mens professional pool in the US needs a new business plan.

Just a thought..

 

[chefjeff]

Having fun yet, Watchez?

Integration of business into any endeavor is the key for abiding success. Fail at this and it goes under.

What is business? It is mutual exchange of values, freely chosen. Time on a table, traded for money, for example. As long as both sides get what they want, the business continues. Happiness exist.

In poker, players seem to just want a chance to win the big bucks. I saw in one pool tourney on TV an amateur getting the chance to win $10K by pocketing the nine ball on the break. I imagine an insurance company was paid to take the risk of the payout. Any chump could luck out on that. Maybe more of that stuff would help?

At the risk of boring everyone, I'm going to repeat the levels of value creation:

Level I...The idea, worth a dime a dozen.
Level II...The prototype,worth a dime.
Level III...The manufacturing,worth a dollar.
Level IV...The marketing, worth $10.

We've got some great ideas. We've got some of them laid out and working on a small basis. We've got some leagues and tours making headway. But---and this is the part I think most player/owners don't understand or at least don't want to do---these great ideas, organizations, and events are all lacking in marketing, the highest value of all. When marketing is integrated with anything, the value skyrockets and money begins to flow.

Someone said that Watchez's posts ideas were "not that simple." What he's calling for is not simple or not easy. The highest value, marketing, is never simple or easy and that's why is rarely gets done by amateur business people.

An example that all here can read about is what David Sapolis is doing with a big chunk of his time. He's on the phone drumming up sponsors for players. Is this fun? I doubt it, but it is where the most value comes from. He does that, it works for him; you do that, it works for you.

Look at the thread that Billy Bob started about "doing something for pool day." It died out fast. Why? Because players don't want to do something for pool, they want to win. But win what? What you lost last week? Where is the value in that? Until more start integrating business and marketing into their games and lifestyles, the money will stay elsewhere.

Sermon's over, you can wake up now,

Jeff Livingston

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,
You fail to get my point. I will try one more time. You need to look at pool from the business standpoint not as a player who loves the activity. Have you ever gone bowling? Do you ever meet the 'owner' of a bowling alley? Most likely not. And bowling has been very successful on TV and as a league sport. I know your argument is going to be that bowling is easy and fat guys can do it. Well fat guys play pool too. I can almost guarantee you that the owner of the bowling alley is not an 'A' quality bowler but he is a 'double A' quality business man. Bowling alleys and pool rooms are similiar...they struggle for day business, rely heavily on leagues to get them thru lean hours, and are willing to stay open late to maximum their coverage of all customers. Oh, and most bowling alleys don't have some kid or owner behind the counter more concerned on how he can beat you out of $100 than he is in getting your repeat business. I almost bought a pool room 5 years ago and immediately my partner & I decided that if we were involved we would NEVER gamble with a customer. A bad landlord situation stopped me from getting involved but that is another story. How bout golf? Another big time money maker with huge television contract. But go to your local course, and yes they have a pro there for lessons, etc. but the pro is not the owner. And I bet there are more golf courses where you live than pool rooms. A golf course is happy if they get 200 customers a day. I think a pool room owner would be happy with the same. The average score of a golfer in the USA is 97. Not very proficient. But the golfer is happy if he played on a reasonably nice course, with friendly help, and he was treated like a person, not a sucker. Will this ever be true for pool if the players think they can continue to be owners?
I owned a GNC (General Nutrition Center) store for 7 1/2 years and was one of the top 5 stores in my division during that time. My partner and I changed GNC's countrywide policy by getting approval to open up in a small town and being successful. Guess what....I didn't know the first thing about vitamins, herbs, sport supplements, etc. when I started but spent previous years talking with people and friends that I thought were good businessmen to learn how to run a business. Getting to know the products was just book smarts.....but in the 7 1/2 years I was there, I never took vitamins or supplements myself. Wasn't something I was really interested in. And I don't particularly look like I work out. But each day I was able to sell the products to customers that wanted them. Get the analogy here...POOL ROOMS DON'T NEED POOL PLAYERS AS OWNERS.
I could go on and on.....I have a friend who is male that owns a very successful women's clothing store. Obviously, he doesn't wear the clothes himself but he is still a great businessman.
I don't know how to solve it. I am trying to start with Jude's mind but it probably isn't working. Maybe Brunswick should start charging $15,000 for a gold crown and then it would take a real businessman and not some shortstop to open a pool room.

I actually worked in a room and worked for a guy who had no interest in pool. I have a very good understanding as to how difficult it can be. Do I think there's a profitable game-plan? Yes. I do. But I don't think that game plan can be found in bowling, in golf and most especially, not in poker.

In order for a poolroom to be a success, you need an owner (or advisor) who is very aware of the immediate market and cater specifically to their needs. Ideally, you'd like a space large enough to accommodate all of the prospective clients you may have. If you're in college town, you'll want space for mingling and a live-band. If you're in a business district, you'll want private rooms and top-shelf liquor. If you have a thriving APA (NYC, DC, Chicago), you'll want the best bartable equipment in the city and employees willing to do heavy recruitment.

On top of all this, you'll want inhouse leagues that are attractive and affordable so that your college students and corporations might actually be interested. You'll need a lounge area large enough that if you go on a waiting list, your patrons can still be comfortable and entertained while they wait. Players? I think the average Joe likes watching top-notch pool. If your room has a reputation for taking care of its best players who behave and weeding out those that don't, you'll never have a problem.

All of this requires the best employees who only have the business in mind. Pool background? In many ways, that can really benefit you so long as they put the business first. It is important to look to other venues for ideas but you can't let them serve as a guide to how to run a poolroom. Only another poolroom in a similar market will give you that. The reasons why people play golf or poker are completely different as to the reasons why people play pool. That works for you and against you. Understand your niche and you'll spend less money on failed ventures.

 

[watchez]

Having fun yet, Watchez?

I have more fun when I get an intelligent response like yours. Pool has to come up with someone that knows how to market a sport. Today I am going to compare it to my other favorite pasttime....FISHING. Anyone see the BassMasters Classic on ESPN last year. This is great marketing at its finest. Showing personalities of the guys fishing, having them all come into a big arena on their boat, lights, action, jokes. ESPN2 has 4 1/2 hours of fishing on every Saturday morning. And guess what they have knowledgable announcers with a personality. I am sorry but the pool announcers need to go. Be happy you married Ewa but please get off my TV. Mitch Lawrence has the personality of a tupperware bowl. And if they can see the sweat of Roger Clemens face from a camera that is 120 feet away, why can't pool do better on TV? I want to add in chefjeff's other quote before I go on...

An example that all here can read about is what David Sapolis is doing with a big chunk of his time. He's on the phone drumming up sponsors for players. Is this fun? I doubt it, but it is where the most value comes from. He does that, it works for him; you do that, it works for you.

Dave must have a lot of patience because he has a product that is very hard to market. Sure a lot of people play pool but what other reason would a sponsor want to get involved besides reaching shear numbers. Quality people? Entriguing personalities? Sportsmanship? (see Chamat at the recent World Championships compared to say Lance Armstrong trying to say that he wasn't deserving of the yellow jersey yet.....if Lance isn't deserving than I don't know who is). Pool has to clean up in order to get a sponsor that wants to puts its name and reputation with the players and organizations. Read this I found on a website for a regional fishing tournament and its rules:

All contestants are required to follow high standards of sportsmanship, courtesy and conservation and to conduct themselves in a manner that will be a credit to themselves, to the Central Texas Bass Championship, sponsors and the sport of fishing and efforts to promote that sport. Examples of conduct not complying with those standards include, but are not limited to, the following: 1) Consumption and/or possession of alcoholic beverages or any mind-altering substance during tournament hours extending through the weigh-in procedure. 2) Abuse of, or addiction to, mind altering substances. 3) Conviction of a felony within the past 36 months. 4) Any other words, conduct or actions reflecting unfavorably on the Central Texas Bass Championship, Country Line Magazine, "The Texas Outdoor Zone" or the sponsors of the tournament or reflecting unfavorably upon efforts to promote safety, sportsmanship, fair competition and compliance with tournament rules.

Now I ask, how many 'pool players' would not qualify to be in this regional fishing tournament????

Sermon's over, you can wake up now,

Jeff Livingston

Thanks Jeff, but I am going to sleep. I was up late last night FISHING til 3 AM.