so what's the worst you've seen? Describe and let us know what ended up happening!
worst sandbagging you've ever seen in league play
- Thread starter Egg McDogit
- Start date
I had a guy on my team playing a lower ranked player. He was obviously missing shots to run up innings. At the end of the night, I went to the other team captain and told him if he wanted to file a complaint that I would be happy to sign it as well. We ended up with every player on OUR team signing the complaint. The league operator raised the player's handicap and locked him in.
Steve
Steve
Well, the APA is obviously the biggest cess pool of sandbagging and handicap abuse. It is ironic, because that league bolsters the equilizer system as great, when in fact, it is the biggest P.O.S. ever.
Most people are clued into the fact that innings play a huge part in determining handicaps and that is enough for them to sandbag, because if they guestimate or just create enough innings, they stumble upon the right amount to never get raised. That isn't difficult to do as the system is just that poor. This is without them having any knowledge of the applied score factor.
If players know that, then sandbagging becomes a science. The APA treats it as some big secret, when if you search on the net (who knows, maybe it's been on this site too) you'll find a detailed explaination of how it works from disgruntled ex-APA league operators.
This is why you'll see 6's who play like 7's put up 90% or greater win percentages over the course of a few seasons and never get raised. That shouldn't be possible in a handicapped format.
There's suppose to be safeguards. The APA lists a number of other methods for dealing with their flawed system. Like the League Operator should track performance and make adjustments. Other teams and players should get together (like a captains meeting) and hash out complaints about handicaps and whatnot. Like a committee.
Problem is, LO's don't like that because it rocks the boat and they're only interested in making money - they really don't care about the league very much or the play. It is also an extra hassle and more work, and LO's are lazy and want to invest as little as humany possible into the process. Also, LO's are the SOURCE of most handicap issues. Sometimes people don't sandbag, the L.O. doesn't raise them as they know this will cause roster problems and scheduling issues. Some teams are 1 handicap away from not being able to field a team. They know that a lot of teams will only play if they stay together. Raising people causes teams to break up. The APA counts on this, but hopes that these people go on to form other teams thus enlarging the league. Sometimes, that's not the case, and L.O.'s want to protect their money by keeping teams happy and intact.
I'm not trying to make this into an APA thread, but it's perhaps the worst handicapped league of all time. And also the biggest one too.
I can't believe people like that league. It is amazing what a lousy dream of a Vegas trip can do to the psyche of low income alcoholics and ball bangers. The pay out is horrible, the format is stupid, and the process is tedious. Sometimes I tell these folks that they can get a really cheap flight to Vegas and there's some great room deals there. Works out many hundreds of dollars cheaper than going the APA route. Best part is, you don't have to play pool while you're there!
Anyway, I used to routinely see players that I'd need a spot to play outside of the APA blatantly sandbag, and when I had to play them - I had to give them a game!
Most people are clued into the fact that innings play a huge part in determining handicaps and that is enough for them to sandbag, because if they guestimate or just create enough innings, they stumble upon the right amount to never get raised. That isn't difficult to do as the system is just that poor. This is without them having any knowledge of the applied score factor.
If players know that, then sandbagging becomes a science. The APA treats it as some big secret, when if you search on the net (who knows, maybe it's been on this site too) you'll find a detailed explaination of how it works from disgruntled ex-APA league operators.
This is why you'll see 6's who play like 7's put up 90% or greater win percentages over the course of a few seasons and never get raised. That shouldn't be possible in a handicapped format.
There's suppose to be safeguards. The APA lists a number of other methods for dealing with their flawed system. Like the League Operator should track performance and make adjustments. Other teams and players should get together (like a captains meeting) and hash out complaints about handicaps and whatnot. Like a committee.
Problem is, LO's don't like that because it rocks the boat and they're only interested in making money - they really don't care about the league very much or the play. It is also an extra hassle and more work, and LO's are lazy and want to invest as little as humany possible into the process. Also, LO's are the SOURCE of most handicap issues. Sometimes people don't sandbag, the L.O. doesn't raise them as they know this will cause roster problems and scheduling issues. Some teams are 1 handicap away from not being able to field a team. They know that a lot of teams will only play if they stay together. Raising people causes teams to break up. The APA counts on this, but hopes that these people go on to form other teams thus enlarging the league. Sometimes, that's not the case, and L.O.'s want to protect their money by keeping teams happy and intact.
I'm not trying to make this into an APA thread, but it's perhaps the worst handicapped league of all time. And also the biggest one too.
I can't believe people like that league. It is amazing what a lousy dream of a Vegas trip can do to the psyche of low income alcoholics and ball bangers. The pay out is horrible, the format is stupid, and the process is tedious. Sometimes I tell these folks that they can get a really cheap flight to Vegas and there's some great room deals there. Works out many hundreds of dollars cheaper than going the APA route. Best part is, you don't have to play pool while you're there!
Anyway, I used to routinely see players that I'd need a spot to play outside of the APA blatantly sandbag, and when I had to play them - I had to give them a game!
Bola Ocho said:
I think that comment is a bit out of line. Personally, I don't consider myself a low income alcoholic ball banger. I actually have a pretty good job, don't drink anything stronger than Mountain Dew, and can hold my own on a pool table. I enjoy the APA as a chance to play pool one night a week. Not a lot of pressure, a pretty good time with friends, and as for Vegas, I really don't care if my team wins the trip or not. I probably couldn't take time off the job to go out there anyway.
Not everyone who plays APA is a slug. You must have been playing at the wrong pool room.
Steve
APA problems
The biggest problem that I came across in the APA, besides a lot of sandbagging, which was already mentioned, was Terry Bell specifically told me and others in a meeting at Holiday Inn in the late 80's, that there would be "NO male 2's". (sorry for the long sentence).
Then he turned around and created a 2 handicap with the "shortened format". Handicap 7 playing a 4, race is 5 to 2, 7 playing a 3, race is 6 to 2.
With the sandbagging that is going on, I've have seen a lot of 4's win unless the 7 doesn't make any mistakes. Of course, if you are in the rural areas, a 7is the best player in the town. When he comes to the big cities or to Vegas, he lucky if he is equivilant to a normal 5 level player.
I do not like the shortened format, so needless to say, I do not play APA.
Of course, it has done a lot for the league play/the game of pool and gave others a chance to start their own leagues, with their own views on how it should be run.
Just my opinion.
The biggest problem that I came across in the APA, besides a lot of sandbagging, which was already mentioned, was Terry Bell specifically told me and others in a meeting at Holiday Inn in the late 80's, that there would be "NO male 2's". (sorry for the long sentence).
Then he turned around and created a 2 handicap with the "shortened format". Handicap 7 playing a 4, race is 5 to 2, 7 playing a 3, race is 6 to 2.
With the sandbagging that is going on, I've have seen a lot of 4's win unless the 7 doesn't make any mistakes. Of course, if you are in the rural areas, a 7is the best player in the town. When he comes to the big cities or to Vegas, he lucky if he is equivilant to a normal 5 level player.
I do not like the shortened format, so needless to say, I do not play APA.
Of course, it has done a lot for the league play/the game of pool and gave others a chance to start their own leagues, with their own views on how it should be run.
Just my opinion.
2's
The Last 2 That I (6) Played Ran 6 Four Times. Yes He Only Won 2 But That's All He Needed. Now To Title Holders Where Another 2 Ran 7 Out 2 Times. This Is In The Tap League. Tired Of The Bull**** We Just Don't Play Any More. Last Post I Read On There Web Page A 4 Has A 15-3 Game Record And A 5-0 Match Record And They Drop Him To A 3. I'll Let Them Figure It Out.
The Last 2 That I (6) Played Ran 6 Four Times. Yes He Only Won 2 But That's All He Needed. Now To Title Holders Where Another 2 Ran 7 Out 2 Times. This Is In The Tap League. Tired Of The Bull**** We Just Don't Play Any More. Last Post I Read On There Web Page A 4 Has A 15-3 Game Record And A 5-0 Match Record And They Drop Him To A 3. I'll Let Them Figure It Out.
I was one of them when I first started. Not on purpose though. My first time playing league I was really nervous. So I missed a lot and didn't do so well. So I dropped down to a 2. The next game I choked a bunch again. (This is in 9ball by the way). So I remained a 2. I missed the 3rd game but my 4th game I killed my opponent who was a 4. 19-2. My ranking went to a 3. Then I played a 5 and beat him outright and had a break and run. I finally levelled out to a 5.
Now one problem I have with the innings is sometimes I'll play players who I know are worse than me. And they aren't sandbagging either. But they'll miss a shot and hook the crap out of me from pure luck. So I pretty much end up giving them ball in hand or leaving them beautiful because my only mission was to touch the ball then a rail.
This next session I'm probably going to take a break from league play and just play in some 1pocket tournaments so I'm around better players and I'm the newbie pain in the butt.
But next spring I'll be back in the APA and will try to find some BCA or TAP around town if I can.
And those who are too good for APA. Give it a rest. APA is fun to go to regardless of how well you do. And if you are a superior player you'll help out lesser players advance from them learning from you. That is unless you are scared of future competition.
Now one problem I have with the innings is sometimes I'll play players who I know are worse than me. And they aren't sandbagging either. But they'll miss a shot and hook the crap out of me from pure luck. So I pretty much end up giving them ball in hand or leaving them beautiful because my only mission was to touch the ball then a rail.
This next session I'm probably going to take a break from league play and just play in some 1pocket tournaments so I'm around better players and I'm the newbie pain in the butt.
But next spring I'll be back in the APA and will try to find some BCA or TAP around town if I can.
And those who are too good for APA. Give it a rest. APA is fun to go to regardless of how well you do. And if you are a superior player you'll help out lesser players advance from them learning from you. That is unless you are scared of future competition.
Biggest sand bagger would be me.
I joined the APA and maintained a 3 handicap for many months. I quit stalling some what one day and destroyed my opponit and became a 5 for the rest of the session. We went to state finals and I sand bagged most of the weekend and finally shot full speed the last day.
I became a 7 that day and was told I would never be any lower than a 7 again.
My last match I played as a 5, I had to play a 6. I broke and ran the 1st 2 racks and ran the last 2 racks in 1 total inning.
I don't play APA anymore.
I joined the APA and maintained a 3 handicap for many months. I quit stalling some what one day and destroyed my opponit and became a 5 for the rest of the session. We went to state finals and I sand bagged most of the weekend and finally shot full speed the last day.
I became a 7 that day and was told I would never be any lower than a 7 again.
My last match I played as a 5, I had to play a 6. I broke and ran the 1st 2 racks and ran the last 2 racks in 1 total inning.
I don't play APA anymore.
I know a guy who exploited one of the weaknesses in the TAP handicapping system. He outright demanded that he only plays weak players on the opposing team. This was done in a manner so as to prevent himself from being raised. He was a 5 or 6 level player (with 7 being the max TAP skill level). He'd be playing weak 3's, 4's... Didn't care if this was good strategy for the team as a whole. He just wanted to ensure that he personally won as many matches as possible, so his stats would be good at the end of the season.
The TAP system puts such a low premium (less than 20%) on actual match wins and losses. This meant that he could win all of his games all season long and not have any concerns about being raised during the season.
Also, since the TAP handicapping system has such a big gap between rating and actual skill level. Thus, a known weak player would take a very long time, before their skill level would be adjusted down. This was also true for a known good player to take a very long time before their skill level would be adjusted up. Eventually though it'd finally adjust. As a result, I've seen some players who shoot far beyond their skill level rating. And, some people who shoot far below their skill level rating. I guess the good thing, is at least it's consistent about it.
The TAP system puts such a low premium (less than 20%) on actual match wins and losses. This meant that he could win all of his games all season long and not have any concerns about being raised during the season.
Also, since the TAP handicapping system has such a big gap between rating and actual skill level. Thus, a known weak player would take a very long time, before their skill level would be adjusted down. This was also true for a known good player to take a very long time before their skill level would be adjusted up. Eventually though it'd finally adjust. As a result, I've seen some players who shoot far beyond their skill level rating. And, some people who shoot far below their skill level rating. I guess the good thing, is at least it's consistent about it.
wow that's pretty strong. Playing as a 3 when you can string racks is too strong...that's all I can say really
Jedi V Man said:
alright get this, now there was a solid team all state players and state champions two of them if i am correct, now the highest average is a solid 10, the lowest a 7, now you must shoot a perfect score which is 40 points as we play four games each. To shoot a perfect score your average goes up if not then it goes down, now this whole team would lose at least one game each this way there averages are low, when they all can be 9's or 10's, but they are doing this this way they can get at least 4 to 6 points of handicapp each round, now is that sandbagging or what LOL, My captain tried to have me lose my game once because if i did we would win that round, i told him i can't do that as i play to win but i lost anyways not due to the fact that i had to but due to i lost fighting as my opponent played very good.
FLICKit said:
I've heard of this in my TAP league.
The best thing about TAP is that the overall skill levels blow away APA.
The bad thing with TAP is that their skill levels are all over the place. And wait until you get to the national tournament in KY or NO...
pooltchr said:
I'm sorry you took that personally. It wasn't directed towards you. In fact, I had pretty much the same outlook on the APA. I was speaking more about those folks who see it as the Golden Ticket to Vegas. Their APA experience is totally dominated by the allure of a Vegas trip. It is their sole motivator to play in the league, yet they don't realize that it is actually pretty tough to qualify for Vegas (of course, depending on your league and how big/strong it is).
I played in the APA, and I'm not an alcoholic ball banger who has to cut into their food money for league fees and beer. I just see a lot of these types and it's sad....
