WPA Rules Question

[GideonF]

Apologies if this has been covered before.

In the WPA 10b doubles the issue of a player pulling balls out of the pocket before the CB stops moving came up again. This is not a case where the moving CB touches one of the balls; rather, the rule apparently is that it is a foul to take the balls out before the CB stops moving.

Ignoring for the moment whether this should be a rule, I don’t see anything in the WPA rules that makes this a foul. Can anyone point to a WPA rule or regulation that makes this a foul?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Ignoring for the moment whether this should be a rule, I don’t see anything in the WPA rules that makes this a foul. Can anyone point to a WPA rule or regulation that makes this a foul?

This situation has been discussed before and needs to be clarified. Under the description of the "Touched Ball" foul, there is no distinction between in play and out of play. That makes intentionally touching an out-of-play ball unsportsmanlike conduct. The referee then needs to decide on a penalty. Evidently the officials in that tournament decided it should be treated like a standard foul.

 

[GideonF]

This situation has been discussed before and needs to be clarified. Under the description of the "Touched Ball" foul, there is no distinction between in play and out of play. That makes intentionally touching an out-of-play ball unsportsmanlike conduct. The referee then needs to decide on a penalty. Evidently the officials in that tournament decided it should be treated like a standard foul.

By that logic is moving out of play balls from one pocket to another a foul (either because one pocket is too full or because you don’t trust the plastic pocket not to spit a ball out if it is empty and hit at pace)? This was certainly common practice in past years.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Even better: your opponent shoots a bank at warp speed to shorten it. It flies off the table and rolls over by your chair. You pick the ball up to return it to the ref.

But one penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is to ignore it. Another is to expel the player from the event forfeiting all prize money. The ref has to choose an appropriate penalty.

 

[GideonF]

Even better: your opponent shoots a bank at warp speed to shorten it. It flies off the table and rolls over by your chair. You pick the ball up to return it to the ref.

But one penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is to ignore it. Another is to expel the player from the event forfeiting all prize money. The ref has to choose an appropriate penalty.

When the rules get revised next I would like to see a distinction between balls in play and out of play. I don’t see any reason that moving balls, or giving it to a ref, or pulling them out (as per my original question) should be a foul at all. The only harm is if the moving CB hits one, but that’s a foul anyway for touching or interfering with a ball still in play. Am I missing something?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Am I missing something?

No. At one time the rules explicitly permitted the players to touch balls out of play to assist the referee in his duties. I'm not sure when that rule disappeared.

 

[jay helfert]

This situation has been discussed before and needs to be clarified. Under the description of the "Touched Ball" foul, there is no distinction between in play and out of play. That makes intentionally touching an out-of-play ball unsportsmanlike conduct. The referee then needs to decide on a penalty. Evidently the officials in that tournament decided it should be treated like a standard foul.

So are we to interpret his to mean if a player touches a ball at any time it's a foul. Picking up a ball off the ground even? It has always been customary for players (winner and loser of each game) to help the official by removing balls from pockets after the game is over and giving them to the referee. So now this is a foul too? If so, it is the all time stupidest rule in the history of Pool!

 

[Poolplaya9]

So are we to interpret his to mean if a player touches a ball at any time it's a foul. Picking up a ball off the ground even? It has always been customary for players (winner and loser of each game) to help the official by removing balls from pockets after the game is over and giving them to the referee. So now this is a foul too? If so, it is the all time stupidest rule in the history of Pool!

The way I read it Bob is just saying that the current rules do in fact technically allow for those interpretations (but that promoters/refs have a lot of latitude in when/if/how to enforce it), but reading between the lines it sounds to me like he is also essentially saying he hopes that the rule gets clarified at some point so that nobody even has the option to be able to choose to interpret it in those ways, and that until then he hopes that the promoters/refs don't choose to have stupid interpretations with stupid penalties for technical violations of the rule like those you mentioned that are clearly not unsportsmanlike conduct.

 

[jay helfert]

The way I read it Bob is just saying that the current rules do in fact technically allow for those interpretations (but that promoters/refs have a lot of latitude in when/if/how to enforce it), but reading between the lines it sounds to me like he is also essentially saying he hopes that the rule gets clarified at some point so that nobody even has the option to be able to choose to interpret it in those ways, and that until then he hopes that the promoters/refs don't choose to have stupid interpretations with stupid penalties for technical violations of the rule like those you mentioned that are clearly not unsportsmanlike conduct.

In other words a really bad rule in the way it is written. I remember recently when a WPA referee called a foul on a woman player who pulled a ball out of the pocket after the game was over and the cue ball was no longer rolling. Terrible call!

 

[gregcantrall]

I saw a ruling go sideways in a mixed Doubles Scotch event. The rule said with ball in hand your partner couldn't touch it. Well in placement was the intention. He touched the cueball while they were standing back from the table discussing the plan. Their astute oponent called "FOUL!" and was awarded ball in hand.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I saw a ruling go sideways in a mixed Doubles Scotch event. The rule said with ball in hand your partner couldn't touch it. Well in placement was the intention. He touched the cueball while they were standing back from the table discussing the plan. Their astute oponent called "FOUL!" and was awarded ball in hand.

That's an interesting situation for doubles play. Should both players be able to touch the ball? In some situations, the shooter for the shot has not been decided.

 

[fastone371]

I think its only a foul to touch the object balls when any balls on the table are still in motion. The safe thing to do is simply walk away from the table without touching anything after the money ball falls.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think its only a foul to touch the object balls when any balls on the table are still in motion. The safe thing to do is simply walk away from the table without touching anything after the money ball falls.

That's true, but habits developed over your entire playing career are hard to break.

 

[GideonF]

That's true, but habits developed over your entire playing career are hard to break.

I agree, and it’s especially galling that the habit being “punished” is one that arises from common courtesy. The current rule encourages players to be less courteous, not more, which is exactly backwards, IMO.