Your attitude towards Scotch doubles tournaments

[Jimbojim]

Good morning,

Tomorrow I have a Scotch Doubles tournament paired with a weaker player. I have played a few of those but I'm usually the weaker player paired with a pro or a shortstop. Now, personally I relish the experience of playing with a stronger player and I'm smart enough to know that I don't know everything about this game so I really exploit the feature of asking my partner for advice on more intricate situations or situations that present multiple options. I mean if I play a shot wrong and nobody tells me, how am I gonna know that its wrong even if I had positive results. Its all percentages...

Anyway, this partner I have tomorrow, I know him very welll and know his game inside and out but he is currently massively under his normal speed as he is coming back from a 2 year break. During those 2 years I improved quite a bit on my execution but also more importantly on my decision making. Last night we were practicing alternatively to get in the groove and it has gotten to a point that if I had to tell him everytime I think he played a shot the wrong way, I would have had to tell him 3 out of 4 shots...which I didn't, as I know I'm not a master and it would sound a bit condescending.

I am the type of player that will never get mad or give trash to my partner if he misses a shot as I will mise some shots or positions myself BUT....I can get irritated if a tough situation comes up and my partner plays a shot just to get rid of it without really planning anything.


Do you like scotch doubles format?

Do you prefer being the stronger or the weaker player?

If you're the stronger player, do you give advice to your partner, wait until he asks you for advice or just let him play his game and adjust accordingly?

If you're the weaker player, do you ask for advice or do you want to be left alone?

 

[vjmehra]

Do you like scotch doubles format?

Yep, I think Scotch Doubles and Team pool in general are great, I wish both were more common!

Do you prefer being the stronger or the weaker player?

I've only ever played in super low level games (a group of friends used to organise mini-mosconi cup events between two rival towns), so I've always been the stronger player, which I quite liked.

If you're the stronger player, do you give advice to your partner, wait until he asks you for advice or just let him play his game and adjust accordingly?

Assuming its allowed within the rules, if there is a shot where they could leave me in multiple positions for the next one without it being obvious where I'd want it (i.e. should they play with top or bottom) then I'd let them know, or alternatively if its a safety we often discuss.

If you're the weaker player, do you ask for advice or do you want to be left alone?

I never have been to date, but I think I'd adopt a similar approach, if I'm not sure where they would want the cue ball I'd ask them and if its a safety or really low percentage shot I'd discuss it.

 

[Jimbojim]

Yep, I think Scotch Doubles and Team pool in general are great, I wish both were more common!



I've only ever played in super low level games (a group of friends used to organise mini-mosconi cup events between two rival towns), so I've always been the stronger player, which I quite liked.



Assuming its allowed within the rules, if there is a shot where they could leave me in multiple positions for the next one without it being obvious where I'd want it (i.e. should they play with top or bottom) then I'd let them know, or alternatively if its a safety we often discuss.



I never have been to date, but I think I'd adopt a similar approach, if I'm not sure where they would want the cue ball I'd ask them and if its a safety or really low percentage shot I'd discuss it.

Thanks for the reply. Thing is, my partner will 99% of the time NEVER ask me for advice. I don't if it's because it'd hurt his pride to acknowledge that he doesn't really know what needs to be done or he thinks he knows it all....

If I go and force-feed him my advice during a match, it could also backfire as it could throw him off and kill his confidence. It could also make him angry or make him feel I don't have confidence in him.

Its a very fine line with him.

 

[grindz]

Great game for the sport

It's a very humbling game for a large number of reasons.
Very fun when you play with someone you trust to put in a good
Effort every shot, and whose company you enjoy. Great learning tool
Wether you are the weaker or stronger player.

REALLY fun to win and have a partner to share the joy with!!

TD

 

[slide13]

Is there a shot clock?

If not, what about during your turn talking to him to plan three shots ahead. Tell him how you're going to play your shot and where you plan to leave him for his next shot, and then mention how you think he should play that shot and where to leave you for the next one.

This way it happens during your turn and it sounds less like advice or instruction and more like collaborative planning of the run if presented properly. You might even find he'll pick up on it and do the same thing after a while.

 

[T-dog]

Thanks for the reply. Thing is, my partner will 99% of the time NEVER ask me for advice. I don't if it's because it'd hurt his pride to acknowledge that he doesn't really know what needs to be done or he thinks he knows it all....

If I go and force-feed him my advice during a match, it could also backfire as it could throw him off and kill his confidence. It could also make him angry or make him feel I don't have confidence in him.

Its a very fine line with him.

I dont ask, say or mention anything. I have fun....if they are going to be a future partner...i discuss things after it is all said and done. The best i did, we both just showed up and played. oh...and once I played with a left handed shooter and kept getting these cold eyes on shots I left that were tough to reach.

When I play with weaker players......I point on the table where I want them to get after they pocket the next shot. Looks like I am thinking through the rack but really I am saying..."put the rock here."

 

[Jimbojim]

Is there a shot clock?

If not, what about during your turn talking to him to plan three shots ahead. Tell him how you're going to play your shot and where you plan to leave him for his next shot, and then mention how you think he should play that shot and where to leave you for the next one.

This way it happens during your turn and it sounds less like advice or instruction and more like collaborative planning of the run if presented properly. You might even find he'll pick up on it and do the same thing after a while.

There isn't any shot clock and we're playing 9-ball. Similar tournaments at the same pool hall at a rule that we could only have one consultation per rack and it had to be the shooting player requesting it but I think this time it's gonna be unlimited.

I think the most important moment to have a consultation with your partner is , unless of course the table is all clustered up at the beginning, when there are only 4 balls remaining on the table. Its very easy to have to wrong angle and its in situations like these that you really want to put the screw in your opponents.

 

[Cornerman]

In every sense, in every way, I love Scotch doubles. As the A shooter, as equal partners, or even as the B Player. I have an unnatural winning percentage at Scotch.

 

[KRJ]

Love scotch doubles. I don't care if I'm the A or B player, but I do get a little frustrated when I"m constantly left bad leaves and have to take tough shots all fuggin night But hey, that's the life of doubles So, maybe I'd rather play with a Monster and let him be pissed off most of the night while I bake in the glorious elixir of ignorance :thumbup:

 

[sixpack]

I like scotch doubles. One time a buddy and I won an open, no handicap scotch doubles tournament. We were the two lowest rated players in the tournament. But we won in a field that included many monsters teamed up together. Why?

1) Have fun first - Don't put unnecessary pressure on yourself or your partner. Play your best and do what you can. If you both do that you'll be okay. Laugh as much as you can - it loosens you both up and lets you get into the zone better.
2) Never apologize. If you leave your partner crap let them shoot it. If they leave you crap just shoot it. You're both adults and can make a freaking shot now and then so do it. The mistakes will probably even out. Get together and agree not to apologize before the match. Also, apologizing makes them much more likely to miss the shot. I don't know if it's because now it's on you or just the power of suggestion but in my experience partners are a lot more likely to miss after an apology.
3) Have a short memory. Don't even think about what your partner did to give you the leave you have. Pretend your opponent was running out and left it for you. Completely different psychology. If you get a shot like that in a game you thought you were going to lose you jump out of your chair and can't wait to get another chance. Do that.
4) Don't micromanage your partner's game. If they ask you or if you're coaching, give them the minimum you need. "Just make it" or "Just make it and leave me anywhere on this side of the table" are great. "Shoot this at a 4 speed with bottom inside and come 4 inches off the rail" = no bueno. Unless they are used to playing the shot exactly the way you do they'll screw it up. No worries, if they do see rule #3. The only exception is if you are playing with someone who is a beginner or doesn't think clearly yet about pool. Then getting specific may help them focus better.

 

[strmanglr scott]

Can't stand scotch doubles. Hard for me to get in a groove.

Rather play w someone better than me.

I'll seek advice when in a sticky situation. I don't mind a partner discussing out routes. I don't think giving advice should be legal.

 

[Jimbojim]

I like scotch doubles. One time a buddy and I won an open, no handicap scotch doubles tournament. We were the two lowest rated players in the tournament. But we won in a field that included many monsters teamed up together. Why?

1) Have fun first - Don't put unnecessary pressure on yourself or your partner. Play your best and do what you can. If you both do that you'll be okay. Laugh as much as you can - it loosens you both up and lets you get into the zone better.
2) Never apologize. If you leave your partner crap let them shoot it. If they leave you crap just shoot it. You're both adults and can make a freaking shot now and then so do it. The mistakes will probably even out. Get together and agree not to apologize before the match. Also, apologizing makes them much more likely to miss the shot. I don't know if it's because now it's on you or just the power of suggestion but in my experience partners are a lot more likely to miss after an apology.
3) Have a short memory. Don't even think about what your partner did to give you the leave you have. Pretend your opponent was running out and left it for you. Completely different psychology. If you get a shot like that in a game you thought you were going to lose you jump out of your chair and can't wait to get another chance. Do that.
4) Don't micromanage your partner's game. If they ask you or if you're coaching, give them the minimum you need. "Just make it" or "Just make it and leave me anywhere on this side of the table" are great. "Shoot this at a 4 speed with bottom inside and come 4 inches off the rail" = no bueno. Unless they are used to playing the shot exactly the way you do they'll screw it up. No worries, if they do see rule #3. The only exception is if you are playing with someone who is a beginner or doesn't think clearly yet about pool. Then getting specific may help them focus better.

I like this whole philosophy!

 

[justinb386]

Good morning,

Tomorrow I have a Scotch Doubles tournament paired with a weaker player. I have played a few of those but I'm usually the weaker player paired with a pro or a shortstop. Now, personally I relish the experience of playing with a stronger player and I'm smart enough to know that I don't know everything about this game so I really exploit the feature of asking my partner for advice on more intricate situations or situations that present multiple options. I mean if I play a shot wrong and nobody tells me, how am I gonna know that its wrong even if I had positive results. Its all percentages...

Anyway, this partner I have tomorrow, I know him very welll and know his game inside and out but he is currently massively under his normal speed as he is coming back from a 2 year break. During those 2 years I improved quite a bit on my execution but also more importantly on my decision making. Last night we were practicing alternatively to get in the groove and it has gotten to a point that if I had to tell him everytime I think he played a shot the wrong way, I would have had to tell him 3 out of 4 shots...which I didn't, as I know I'm not a master and it would sound a bit condescending.

I am the type of player that will never get mad or give trash to my partner if he misses a shot as I will mise some shots or positions myself BUT....I can get irritated if a tough situation comes up and my partner plays a shot just to get rid of it without really planning anything.


Do you like scotch doubles format?

Do you prefer being the stronger or the weaker player?

If you're the stronger player, do you give advice to your partner, wait until he asks you for advice or just let him play his game and adjust accordingly?

If you're the weaker player, do you ask for advice or do you want to be left alone?

Very nice post. I personally do not like scotch doubles, and the reason why, is because it makes me even more nervous about making mistakes, and not only letting myself down about also letting down my partner. I respect scotch doubles matches and tournaments (it makes 2 players work as a team), but I do not like them. If you are playing with a weaker player, then just try your best to be understanding about his or her game, and only give advice when asked (I think that is best, to not annoy them, or just give advice when your opponent is shooting, and not when your partner is at the table). Good luck with the tournament . Hope you do well, and work well with your partner. Scotch doubles is not easy, and takes 2 players with very similar styles to do well I think. I always did well with a partner that played very similar to me and my style of play, but it is so nerve racking to me. Good luck.

 

[justinb386]

Thanks for the reply. Thing is, my partner will 99% of the time NEVER ask me for advice. I don't if it's because it'd hurt his pride to acknowledge that he doesn't really know what needs to be done or he thinks he knows it all....

If I go and force-feed him my advice during a match, it could also backfire as it could throw him off and kill his confidence. It could also make him angry or make him feel I don't have confidence in him.

Its a very fine line with him.

I am sorry , but if you are playing with a partner that you are not comfortable with (because he is not wise enough to know you are the much stronger player, and ask for your advice when ever possible), then why are you playing with him? If you can't possibly find a better partner , then why play the tournament? I would not even play in the situation that you are talking about. It sounds like a nightmare to me, and a complete waste of time .

 

[mvp]

I never play with the competitive attitude, I try and win but look at the dbls as for fun only. In the past I try and leave my partner the easiest shots and not do any coaching unless I know him or her. No undue stress unless I know what they can handle

 

[Cornerman]

I am sorry , but if you are playing with a partner that you are not comfortable with (because he is not wise enough to know you are the much stronger player, and ask for your advice when ever possible), then why are you playing with him? If you can't possibly find a better partner , then why play the tournament? I would not even play in the situation that you are talking about. It sounds like a nightmare to me, and a complete waste of time .

Blind draw, high/low.

If you don't know what this is, ask.


Freddie

 

[Jimbojim]

I am sorry , but if you are playing with a partner that you are not comfortable with (because he is not wise enough to know you are the much stronger player, and ask for your advice when ever possible), then why are you playing with him? If you can't possibly find a better partner , then why play the tournament? I would not even play in the situation that you are talking about. It sounds like a nightmare to me, and a complete waste of time .

Because he's my friend.

 

[justinb386]

Blind draw, high/low.

If you don't know what this is, ask.


Freddie

Yeah, there is a "blind draw" scotch doubles tournament (that is very popular) here in Louisville, but I will never play in it. If I make a mistake, then I just want it to be all on me. I do not want to let down my partner. This is why I never liked scotch doubles. It is also very annoying when you get a partner that tries to give you advice on certain shots, but you know in your mind that what he is telling you is not the best advice. I do not mind another player giving me advice, but it is just annoying if I know that they are wrong about what they are telling me to do. This is another reason why I do not like playing on league teams. If I lose or make a bad mistake, I feel like I am letting down the entire team. It is really horrible seeing the look on their faces after I just lost them a trip to the national championships in Vegas (I did that twice, in 8 ball and 9 ball, where is came down to me and my opponent, with the winner of that match winning their team a free trip to Vegas, and I played bad and lost). I always played my best in singles competition.

 

[justinb386]

Because he's my friend.

I understand. That is cool. Well I hope you two do (or did) well in the tournament. I just know that Scotch doubles is not easy. It takes a lot of team work (unless you team up with a player that plays about the same speed, and style that you play, and think a lot alike).

 

[Gorramjayne]

I'm very much a rhythm player so in the beginning of a rack I'll take an unusual or somewhat risky shot to set up for the out if it it gets me on a pattern that lets me shoot faster and looser rather, just because I'm more accurate when I get down and pull the trigger quickly.

So I love that scotch doubles makes me slow down, and give the leave not to myself, but to someone I don't trust. If I'm the stronger player, I like the challenge of trying to give fool-proof position then having to mop up a mess of a leave once they prove 'fool-proof' isn't actually fool-proof at all, When I'm (historically) the weaker player, that sheer will not to be the weak link knocks my game up another notch or two so my I can impress my partner by punching above my weight.

Basically, I see scotch doubles for what it is: A wonderful teaching tool and competition format that lets weaker players see strong players in action up-close and personal without getting violently mowed down by them. There's no shame in losing scotch doubles, unless you're the weaker player and you blew it at every turn. You lose scotch doubles when the weaker player is just to weak to keep runs on-track and/or the stronger player has too little faith in his partner and tries so hard to tee up unmissable shots that he is actually trying to be too precise and over-extends himself on certain shots.

It's scotch doubles. Especially if you're the higher ranking layer nobody is going to judge you by the final result. The're going to judge you by how you handle things,especially if you figure out how to appropriately encourage and coach your partner, as opposed to shunning him for missing THAT STUPID ****ING SHOT THAT YOU SET HIM UP PERFECTLY FOR WHAT THE ****ING **** IS THE MATTER WITH YOUR CANDY F@#!£T ASS?!?!