The APA 9 ball team CHAMPIONS disqualified

[Sam at TAP]

This is why I don't come on here

I hope you're right, you're betting your reputation on it. Seems like a very short leap to me

You don't know me but yet you question my rep as being a short leap. I been a TAP licensee for 16 years and I do all of the sales for TAP. My time with TAP and what I have done with TAP speaks for itself and my reputation. So Celophane until you can prove your rep is as good as mine you should just keep to the subject and not attack me personally. Did I attack you? No. This is why I stay off of these boards.

 

[racefornine]

he played 2 matches..2nd round and 3rd round.. and no fake id was ever used,


It was the sixth match , and his opponent said he did show an ID . Lie and Cheat .

 

[TheNewSharkster]

You don't know me but yet you question my rep as being a short leap. I been a TAP licensee for 16 years and I do all of the sales for TAP. My time with TAP and what I have done with TAP speaks for itself and my reputation. So Celophane until you can prove your rep is as good as mine you should just keep to the subject and not attack me personally. Did I attack you? No. This is why I stay off of these boards.

Good maybe you should go away. You are giving these cheaters another forum to play pool.

 

[cardiac kid]

I did not want to get involved in this mess since it is the other leagues problem and not TAP's but since it was brought up that they play in TAP, I want to clarify a few things here.

1. The male players have been in TAP long before what happened last August so they are not "branching out" to TAP. Two of the four have played TAP for 8-13 years. The least the other two have been in TAP is about 2 1/2 years. So they didn't just jump over to TAP. They have been in TAP.

2. I am not nor do I plan on banning these players from TAP for something they did in the other league. This would be the same as banning someone from one pool room because he did something in another. I am not backing them for what they did. It was wrong what they did. Period. But it is not a TAP matter or problem. They did nothing like this in TAP.

3. I have banned players for cheating and not paying league fees for life in TAP and they have been accepted into the APA with open arms. They were not banned there due to what they did in my league. So before anyone jumps on me for not banning them, it goes both ways.

4. If these players do anything in TAP like they did in Vegas, they will be banned for life, not 2 years. But they have not done anything wrong in TAP at this time.

5. Before you guys take it further, many of these players are currently playing in the BCA as well.

6. I always stress to my players when they are at a national event and you don't know the players. CHECK ID'S!! What they did was wrong but it was stupid for the opposing team to let the door open to this abuse.

7. The bottom line is this. If they did something wrong in other leagues then that's the other leagues problem. They are innocent in TAP of any these things. Will I and TAP keep an eye on them. Absolutely! These players have never did this in TAP and have always paid their weekly fees. Maybe it's the system over there or the people running it. That's just my opinion. No league can control what players do but sometimes the system opens it up for this to happen. Think about it.

Sam,

I understand fully your hesitancy to ban this guy. My problem with it is, when will someone take a stand? If we as a group of players and sanctioning bodies continue to turn a blind eye towards rules infractions like this, when will it change? YOU have an opportunity to do something right now. This guy admitted he cheated. In public no less. Because the APA did nothing, now TAP will do nothing? I'm really disappointed in your decision. Knowing what you know now, a ban even for a year or two, would send a message to him, his team and anyone else who figures to try to cheat. Blatant or not. We're talking about seven or eight players. Not eight hundred.

Saw a post from BillS in this thread. One can only hope he can do something with the leagues he is involved with. Someone has to take the first step! Hoping it was you. Evidently not.

Lyn

 

[Celophanewrap]

You don't know me but yet you question my rep as being a short leap. I been a TAP licensee for 16 years and I do all of the sales for TAP. My time with TAP and what I have done with TAP speaks for itself and my reputation. So Celophane until you can prove your rep is as good as mine you should just keep to the subject and not attack me personally. Did I attack you? No. This is why I stay off of these boards.

No I don't know you and I didn't question your reputation. The meaning behind my statement was that if you are wrong, then you have vouched for a known cheater when you knew they were a known cheater... thus causing damage to your reputation.
I don't need to prove anything to you, I'm not the one vouching for a known criminal, I had the same opportunity to cheat but did not. This is the subject and I didn't attack you, yet.
Let me ask you this: You catch your sons girlfriend banging his best friend, do you simply say, well she wasn't cheating on me, I don't have a problem with it, she's always welcome in my house, or do you begin to "question her judgement?"

 

[uwate]

Its very disappointing that the BCA and TAP both are here in this thread asking and answering questions but an official APA response is not here. I notice on the APA website where the national team coverage for 2012, they have removed all references to the nineball championship round. Sweep it all under the rug and carry on with the business of collecting weekly dues I guess.

 

[CreeDo]

Maybe I'm a softie, but I don't think it's wrong to give people a second chance.
It doesn't sound like their gameplan was to sneak in Efren Reyes and claim he's Carlo Cruz, a 4 from New Jersey.

They still broke the rules and cheated, so it's correct they get booted from the tournament, lose their money, and get banned from APA.

But any punishment above and beyond that is overkill, let 'em try to do it the honest way in TAP. I'm sure Sam and the others will keep a close eye on them. He's said multiple times that he doesn't condone it, he's just not going to try to blackball these people from ever playing league pool again.

Sorry your AZ experience hasn't been that great Sam. Don't sweat the pitchforks and torches.

 

[Sam at TAP]

I am on here and getting blasted for what?

1. Where is the BCA and APA ops from this area? In a closet hiding.

2. I have the guts to come on here even though I nor TAP did anything wrong. Am I sticking up for these players. Absolutely not. In fact, some of them are not in TAP.

3. I am owed $1,000's of dollars over the years and much of that money is owed to me by TAP players now playing in the APA. And yet you guys jump on me for something someone else did. Amazing.

4. You did question my rep by saying it was a "short leap." And I did not vouch for anyone. All I said is they have done nothing wrong in my league like what they did in that league. Period! Quit putting words in my mouth that I did not say. That's why I don't get on here. Things always get twisted around. Get a freaking life already and go hits some balls.

5. Yes it is a shame that the leagues can't work together but when you have other leagues tearing your posters or advertising down, slandering new licensees names and/or the league, it is a shame. And you wonder why?

6. Waiting on the APA to make the first step. Why does it have to be on me? Ban the players I banned and then we will talk. I banned players years before this happened so like you, I was disappointed in them for allowing them to play in their league. Goes both ways.

7. How many have you have been banned from a bar, hotel, whatever and you went right down the road and patronized a competitor? That's because you did nothing wrong there.

8. I sent a message to those players. They have what we call in TAP a LAH on them. "Lowest Attainable Handicap" meaning if they try to cheat or bag, their handicap will not go down. All of them are 6 or 7 handicaps in TAP except one player. That's my message. And please, don't try and tell me how to run my league. I been doing it for 16 years. I think I got the hang of it now.

I am done with this now. Not coming back. We have another sold out Rally Dream Team event at the Expo to get ready for and all I wanted to state that these players have been TAP members for years...PS...To all you APA ops and cronies on here that bleed APA...I have sold between 50-60 new licensees that past 3 years and 98% of those were APA players or former players. What's that tell you? See ya at the Expo and stop by the TAP booth and say hello.

 

[hon400ex]

Its very disappointing that the BCA and TAP both are here in this thread asking and answering questions but an official APA response is not here. I notice on the APA website where the national team coverage for 2012, they have removed all references to the nineball championship round. Sweep it all under the rug and carry on with the business of collecting weekly dues I guess.

I am a usually a big APA supporter but I couldn't agree more with this. It is disappointing that they haven't come out with a statement, and a harsher penalty. As I posted before, I think fraud would be appropriate.
Andy

 

[klockdoc]

Can anyone answer this?

Thanks.

It could be overcome, but chances are doing it throughout the whole tournament are not likely.

You have a total of 5 players equaling a total of 23 points or less. When you play your players, you can play the three that you have on your team first and if you keep winning....you keep advancing.

With two players out, this becomes real difficult. If you lose one match, it is over.

One player out, would be a little easier. If you came up to a match that you felt the opposing team player was a strong player, you could simply forfeit that match and then put up your player.

I think winning the flip would play a big part in this match up. Especially if something leaked out with your team missing a player/s.

Not the same as BCA, whereas you would have to forfeit a match every round. I have seen teams in our group that played BCA with a 4 man team and have went far into the tournament. Depends on luck of the draw!

 

[Celophanewrap]

4. You did question my rep by saying it was a "short leap." And I did not vouch for anyone. All I said is they have done nothing wrong in my league like what they did in that league. Period! Quit putting words in my mouth that I did not say. That's why I don't get on here. Things always get twisted around. Get a freaking life already and go hits some balls.
.

"It's a short leap" means - They cheated so it's not so hard to believe they would do it again. Explain to me how that is attacking you, and OK, if it makes you feel better you tell everyone that I attacked you, (but I really didn't)
...16 years, eh?

BTW - I do agree that The APA has to address this publicly, anyone holding their breath?

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I am a usually a big APA supporter but I couldn't agree more with this. It is disappointing that they haven't come out with a statement, and a harsher penalty. As I posted before, I think fraud would be appropriate.
Andy

To be fair APA doesn't really have a national rep on this site. They are going after the team for the money and banned these guys so they are doing something.

 

[justadub]

1. Where is the BCA and APA ops from this area? In a closet hiding.

2. I have the guts to come on here even though I nor TAP did anything wrong. Am I sticking up for these players. Absolutely not. In fact, some of them are not in TAP.

3. I am owed $1,000's of dollars over the years and much of that money is owed to me by TAP players now playing in the APA. And yet you guys jump on me for something someone else did. Amazing.

4. You did question my rep by saying it was a "short leap." And I did not vouch for anyone. All I said is they have done nothing wrong in my league like what they did in that league. Period! Quit putting words in my mouth that I did not say. That's why I don't get on here. Things always get twisted around. Get a freaking life already and go hits some balls.

5. Yes it is a shame that the leagues can't work together but when you have other leagues tearing your posters or advertising down, slandering new licensees names and/or the league, it is a shame. And you wonder why?

6. Waiting on the APA to make the first step. Why does it have to be on me? Ban the players I banned and then we will talk. I banned players years before this happened so like you, I was disappointed in them for allowing them to play in their league. Goes both ways.

7. How many have you have been banned from a bar, hotel, whatever and you went right down the road and patronized a competitor? That's because you did nothing wrong there.

8. I sent a message to those players. They have what we call in TAP a LAH on them. "Lowest Attainable Handicap" meaning if they try to cheat or bag, their handicap will not go down. All of them are 6 or 7 handicaps in TAP except one player. That's my message. And please, don't try and tell me how to run my league. I been doing it for 16 years. I think I got the hang of it now.

I am done with this now. Not coming back. We have another sold out Rally Dream Team event at the Expo to get ready for and all I wanted to state that these players have been TAP members for years...PS...To all you APA ops and cronies on here that bleed APA...I have sold between 50-60 new licensees that past 3 years and 98% of those were APA players or former players. What's that tell you? See ya at the Expo and stop by the TAP booth and say hello.

Wow. Everytime you post here, you give me the impression that you are angry. Perhaps its just me, but I expect that is why you get some of the responses here that you do.

It is clearly evident that you are passionate about your league. I'm certain no one doubt that. Perhaps if you didn't come on so aggressively, you might get a better reception here. I know, you aren't worried about it...

I wish you good luck with your leagues. Sincerely.

 

[Cory in DC]

It could be overcome, but chances are doing it throughout the whole tournament are not likely.

You have a total of 5 players equaling a total of 23 points or less. When you play your players, you can play the three that you have on your team first and if you keep winning....you keep advancing.

With two players out, this becomes real difficult. If you lose one match, it is over.

One player out, would be a little easier. If you came up to a match that you felt the opposing team player was a strong player, you could simply forfeit that match and then put up your player.

I think winning the flip would play a big part in this match up. Especially if something leaked out with your team missing a player/s.

Not the same as BCA, whereas you would have to forfeit a match every round. I have seen teams in our group that played BCA with a 4 man team and have went far into the tournament. Depends on luck of the draw!

Actually, you can't pick when to forfeit (though if I made the rules, you would be able to). The forfeit has to go last.

In order to forfeit while still playing 4 players that add up to 20 or 21, you have to have a roster that would allow you to meet the 23 rule, even if one of the needed players is absent. Otherwise, you have to play four players whose skill level adds up to 19.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

clarity

I want to clarify a few things here.


6. I always stress to my players when they are at a national event and you don't know the players. CHECK ID'S!! What they did was wrong but it was stupid for the opposing team to let the door open to this abuse.

.

(emphasis added for clarity !)
Thanks for the clarification SAM.

You are just setting your league up for problems.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

It still astonishes me that some seemingly intelligent posters here get all bent out of shape when some poster(s) post something they don't like.

"I'm taking my baseball and bat and going home 'cause Marty said I can't throw it as far as him."

Sam, you made some great points in your posts and I applaud you coming into this f'd up incident. You differentiated TAP from the APA diplomatically. But, consider growing some thicker skin. You and TAP have an opportunity to grow (or lose) capital on AZB if you choose. You have to deal with the good and bad anywhere.

 

[TCo]

This would be the same as banning someone from one pool room because he did something in another. I am not backing them for what they did. It was wrong what they did. Period. But it is not a TAP matter or problem. They did nothing like this in TAP.

Huh, try cheating in one casino and see if you get banned in another.

Seems like the only interest is a big effing money grab.

 

[ctyhntr]

*tap tap* Well said, I hope Sam stays around and this doesn't discourage others.

It still astonishes me that some seemingly intelligent posters here get all bent out of shape when some poster(s) post something they don't like.

"I'm taking my baseball and bat and going home 'cause Marty said I can't throw it as far as him."

Sam, you made some great points in your posts and I applaud you coming into this f'd up incident. You differentiated TAP from the APA diplomatically. But, consider growing some thicker skin. You and TAP have an opportunity to grow (or lose) capital on AZB if you choose. You have to deal with the good and bad anywhere.

 

[Spider1]

unfortunately this seems to happen no matter what the league is.

Absolutely spot on!

If anyone thinks widespread cheating and sandbagging does not happen in every league they are hopelessly naive.

It's all down to how the local LO runs his league. Some are great, some don't give a flying F what goes on as long as they get their money. So it's a coin toss what sort of weekly league environment you are going to get. And even if your local LO is great, and your local league is spotless, when you get to nationals you will be mixing with ALL kinds, and what you see will amaze you.

It's going to happen. 100% going to happen. Period.



This case is only funny because Doughboy came on the forums and flat our admitted cheating then tried to defend it. Which is pretty hilarious.

 

[Lonestar_jim]

Don't waste your time explaining

"It's a short leap" means - They cheated so it's not so hard to believe they would do it again. Explain to me how that is attacking you, and OK, if it makes you feel better you tell everyone that I attacked you, (but I really didn't)
...16 years, eh?

BTW - I do agree that The APA has to address this publicly, anyone holding their breath?

This is no place for people with thin skin or those defending (by association and a 7 point monologue) cheaters.

But I was glad SAM let everyone know that the players in question are seasoned TAP players and not just switching leagues.