Turning Stone - rip off

[bradsh98]

I am curious though-does the guy who keeps that money indulge with hookers, food from reservation required eateries, a day at the racetrack, all of the above?

That was a joke.. I cannot truthfully speak to what Mike may or may not spend the additional money on. I will say, though I don't really know him personally, he seems to be a respectable person. At least, that was my impression, from the few interactions that I have shared with him.

In regards to your other question, this is not a new policy. To my knowledge, the entry has always been non-refundable.

 

[skip100]

I dunno, if I sign up for an event or buy a ticket and don't show up I generally don't expect to get my money back. It's a nice thing to have happen though.

 

[JAM]

I dunno, if I sign up for an event or buy a ticket and don't show up I generally don't expect to get my money back. It's a nice thing to have happen though.

There is one exception, though, to this line of thinking. If I buy a ticket and do not show up, nobody else can sit in that seat if I am not there. The establishment cannot re-sell my seat if I paid for it. I can, however, sell my ticket to somebody else. Therein lies the rub.

Tournaments, however, are different. It could be -- and I'm just guessing -- that Mike advertises who is coming to the event. If a pro suddenly cancels out at the last minute, as what happened to Greg Sullivan in the Derby City in Dixie happening at the same time as Bonus Ball -- those who came to see the pros are disappointed because those pros, as advertised previously, will not be there. That is one logical line of thinking.

 

[bradsh98]

ok, same argument. I tell him I can't make it, he quickly fills it himself with another player, and refunds me only when he gets another player to take his spot. He can even take a "restocking" fee for his troubles. THis is have been going on for decades and it not a difficult process. But I guess it's just easier to just pocket someone else's money.

Hotels do it all the time, and they have more rooms than players, but someone, the guy working for min wage at the front desk can some how pull this off ??

I see your point.. You can make any comparison that you want, and I could think up a few myself.. However, I still believe that offering a refund will cause more harm than good.

Since every event has filled for the past 10 years, I would suggest that the majority of players don't have a problem with the policies.

 

[Get_A_Grip]

There is one exception, though, to this line of thinking. If I buy a ticket and do not show up, nobody else can sit in that seat if I am not there. The establishment cannot re-sell my seat if I paid for it. I can, however, sell my ticket to somebody else. Therein lies the rub.

Tournaments, however, are different. It could be -- and I'm just guessing -- that Mike advertises who is coming to the event. If a pro suddenly cancels out at the last minute, as what happened to Greg Sullivan in the Derby City in Dixie happening at the same time as Bonus Ball -- those who came to see the pros are disappointed because those pros, as advertised previously, will not be there. That is one logical line of thinking.

Heck, at a local pool room that I used to go to my brother and I were playing pool for a couple hours and were drinking. We decided to leave and go someplace else. However, we forgot to take the balls back to the counter and to pick up my Driver's License.

At the end of the night I realized that I never picked up my ID from the front desk or paid. We returned there and went to our table and some other guys were playing. So I go to the front desk to get my ID and pay, and the person behind the desk (daughter of the owner) charges me for 8 hours of time! -- the full amount from when we first got the balls and "checked-in", even though they had "re-rented" our table to others.

We tried to make the very obvious logical argument, but she wouldn't budge. I used to go there all of the time and dump tons of money there, but I had to stop going there out of principle. Some people are just more greedy than others.

 

[skip100]

Heck, at a local pool room that I used to go to my brother and I were playing pool for a couple hours and were drinking. We decided to leave and go someplace else. However, we forgot to take the balls back to the counter and to pick up my Driver's License.

At the end of the night I realized that I never picked up my ID from the front desk or paid. We returned there and went to our table and some other guys were playing. So I go to the front desk to get my ID and pay, and the person behind the desk (daughter of the owner) charges me for 8 hours of time! -- the full amount from when we first got the balls and "checked-in", even though they had "re-rented" our table to others.

We tried to make the very obvious logical argument but she wouldn't budge. I used to go there all of the time and dump tons of money there, but I had to stop going there out of principle. Some people are just more greedy than others.

That's a good way to get a little money now and lose a lot of money later.

 

[BmoreMoney]

Just a few thoughts; mind you I don't know that much about this event specifically , so these are just in general. First with the no refund - well fwiw I would refund minus $50 " restocking fees, administrative costs ". There is another angle to this though that we may not have thought of. With how popular this event is and how many big na,email pros involved, there's a possibility that once one of these big names signs up their name is used to promote the event. Folks may literally come to event just to see them - then when they don't show you may have a pissed off customer for life due to the disappointment along with them possibly rearranging their schedule along with whatever they spent to make the trip. Also; while I don't know EXACTLY how this works into it but I'd bet it does, being no gate I'd bet that Mike gets a " cut " of the rooms booked, and more importantly the number of folks he brings into the casino - for obvious reasons. I'd also bet these numbers can be significant , to the point where it very well may be his biggest money maker and somehow these cancelations throw a monkey wrench into it in some way.

As far as not being able to " sell " or swap your spot - I 100% understand and agree with that. This is an EXTREMELY popular event. As with any extremely popular concert or really anything you need " tickets " for there could be massive " scalping " - many folks would buy up all the spots right away or work with a group of people to get as many spots as possible with the sole intention of reselling those spots for as much as they could. This scenario ALWAYS SUCKS for the patrons, the customers, basically the players and would really hurt this event quickly and could potentially kill it all together. This kinda thing even hurts when theyre 20,000 " tickets ", so think of the impact on such a " small " availability.

 

[watchez]

I'm all for the positives of that tournament and I agree, people get paid and that's awesome. I just cannot understand why he keeps the money. I personally know two who signed up a long time ago and now are not able to play. That's $400 just from people I know. Honestly, I just think it's a shady move to not refund if he fills the spot and thought it's worthy of a post for those who do not know this policy.

I'd love to meet you too. Come on up!

I know two more that are paid and signed up and now can't attend with a LEGITIMATE reason. (no I won't name their names). So that is another $400 into Zuglan's pocket. Maybe it is part of the business plan to c0ver the added money and walk away with a profit.

 

[cleary]

I went to the race track once. The horse I bet on threw the jockey off and jumped over a fence. No refund.

That makes no sense.

 

[watchez]

I dunno, if I sign up for an event or buy a ticket and don't show up I generally don't expect to get my money back. It's a nice thing to have happen though.

If I buy a ticket for a Southwest airlines flight, I can cancel up to 10 minutes prior to take off and get a credit. So they keep me as a customer and get my money towards another flight. And they keep me as a customer because it breeds loyalty.

 

[cleary]

I understand that things come up, and sometimes you can't honor your commitment, but that's on you, not the tournament director. If he offers a refund, it just makes it that much easier for someone to back out of the event.

If the TD wants to keep the money, then I would want to keep my spot and take two forfeits.

 

[cleary]

It's sad that anyone can defend this. I'm glad it's never happened to me but now I personally know at least 4 people from this current event that are out $200 yet his field will fill. Way to scam $800+...

 

[Cardigan Kid]

After 10 years of watching Turning Stone Classics, I finally played in one last winter. When I approached Mike the previous summer to sign up, before he even accepted the cash, he explained the no refunds, no exceptions policy.

I agreed 100% and signed up. one thing that Mike's Turning Stone Classic tournaments are is professional. When you play, your name is displayed on a printed marquee sign placed on the table light. It's the most professional environment and fills everyone with pride to either play or watch because it's such a great example of where the sport of pool can be of everyone approached it like a professional.

That being said, here is some information from behind the scenes that some might want to know regarding Mike and the turning stone classic:

- This "no refund" policy has been in place from early on because players were taking advantage of the system and the popularity of the tournament. one example is a player raffling of his spot to the highest bidder and not just making extra money on the side, but screwing over the players patiently sitting on the waiting list.

- The casino grants a block of rooms at a lower price for players which is generous considering they can sell these rooms at a higher price very easily. This block of rooms is usually filled before the tournament. If a player cancels, the room either goes back to higher price or goes unfilled. Not only does this look bad on Mike who shows the casino he can bring in players and business but the next player on the waiting list might have wanted that room and would've flown in with it reserved at a lower price.

- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Those are some reasons for the policy, there are many more.

I understand there are some people that had to cancel this tournament and they have disagreements. A professional pool tournament should have rules that apply to everyone. I do know of one pro that had to cancel...

Darren Appleton is on the poster and complications arose where he couldn't leave England to play in this upcoming Turning Stone Classic. He not only didn't ask for the $200 back, but he offered to pay a penalty fee if there was one (which there isn't) because that's how he is and how he plays...Very professional.

Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.

One cannot be ripped off if they enter into an agreement after being explained the rules of that agreement beforehand. If that is one thing that anyone who has played in a turning stone classic knows is the "no refunds, no exceptions" policy, from a nobody like myself to a world champion like Darren Appleton...everyone is given a shot with the same rules.

 

[watchez]

After 10 years of watching Turning Stone Classics, I finally played in one last winter. When I approached Mike the previous summer to sign up, before he even accepted the cash, he explained the no refunds, no exceptions policy.

I agreed 100% and signed up. one thing that Mike's Turning Stone Classic tournaments are is professional. When you play, your name is displayed on a printed marquee sign placed on the table light. It's the most professional environment and fills everyone with pride to either play or watch because it's such a great example of where the sport of pool can be of everyone approached it like a professional.

That being said, here is some information from behind the scenes that some might want to know regarding Mike and the turning stone classic:

- This "no refund" policy has been in place from early on because players were taking advantage of the system and the popularity of the tournament. one example is a player raffling of his spot to the highest bidder and not just making extra money on the side, but screwing over the players patiently sitting on the waiting list.

- The casino grants a block of rooms at a lower price for players which is generous considering they can sell these rooms at a higher price very easily. This block of rooms is usually filled before the tournament. If a player cancels, the room either goes back to higher price or goes unfilled. Not only does this look bad on Mike who shows the casino he can bring in players and business but the next player on the waiting list might have wanted that room and would've flown in with it reserved at a lower price.

- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Those are some reasons for the policy, there are many more.

I understand there are some people that had to cancel this tournament and they have disagreements. A professional pool tournament should have rules that apply to everyone. I do know of one pro that had to cancel...

Darren Appleton is on the poster and complications arose where he couldn't leave England to play in this upcoming Turning Stone Classic. He not only didn't ask for the $200 back, but he offered to pay a penalty fee if there was one (which there isn't) because that's how he is and how he plays...Very professional.

Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.

One cannot be ripped off if they enter into an agreement after being explained the rules of that agreement beforehand. If that is one thing that anyone who has played in a turning stone classic knows is the "no refunds, no exceptions" policy, from a nobody like myself to a world champion like Darren Appleton...everyone is given a shot with the same rules.

Not issuing a refund AND then filling the spot to another paying customer is not professional (since professional was the key word in your post).

 

[mmwtdh]

If the TD wants to keep the money, then I would want to keep my spot and take two forfeits.

This.

If I knew I was not getting my money back and he was gonna fill and collect again, I'd just no show.....

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Not issuing a refund AND then filling the spot to another paying customer is not professional (since professional was the key word in your post).

Absolutely it is. It's explained before hand that's what happens, and every player agrees to it.
I just closed on a construction contract where I felt half a dozen things the bank can do is a "rip off" but I was free to either agree to those terms or walk away.

The same with entering into this tournament.

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

After 10 years of watching Turning Stone Classics, I finally played in one last winter. When I approached Mike the previous summer to sign up, before he even accepted the cash, he explained the no refunds, no exceptions policy.

I agreed 100% and signed up. one thing that Mike's Turning Stone Classic tournaments are is professional. When you play, your name is displayed on a printed marquee sign placed on the table light. It's the most professional environment and fills everyone with pride to either play or watch because it's such a great example of where the sport of pool can be of everyone approached it like a professional.

That being said, here is some information from behind the scenes that some might want to know regarding Mike and the turning stone classic:

- This "no refund" policy has been in place from early on because players were taking advantage of the system and the popularity of the tournament. one example is a player raffling of his spot to the highest bidder and not just making extra money on the side, but screwing over the players patiently sitting on the waiting list.

- The casino grants a block of rooms at a lower price for players which is generous considering they can sell these rooms at a higher price very easily. This block of rooms is usually filled before the tournament. If a player cancels, the room either goes back to higher price or goes unfilled. Not only does this look bad on Mike who shows the casino he can bring in players and business but the next player on the waiting list might have wanted that room and would've flown in with it reserved at a lower price.

- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Those are some reasons for the policy, there are many more.

I understand there are some people that had to cancel this tournament and they have disagreements. A professional pool tournament should have rules that apply to everyone. I do know of one pro that had to cancel...

Darren Appleton is on the poster and complications arose where he couldn't leave England to play in this upcoming Turning Stone Classic. He not only didn't ask for the $200 back, but he offered to pay a penalty fee if there was one (which there isn't) because that's how he is and how he plays...Very professional.

Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.

One cannot be ripped off if they enter into an agreement after being explained the rules of that agreement beforehand. If that is one thing that anyone who has played in a turning stone classic knows is the "no refunds, no exceptions" policy, from a nobody like myself to a world champion like Darren Appleton...everyone is given a shot with the same rules.

That is odd, Daz had stated before that he wouldn't play at the tournament because of the shitty 9 ball counting on the break rule.

Watch the streaming table this event and watch the never ending racking problems, and no TD in sight. Hardly professional Everyone will act like it is the first time it has ever happened.

Go 'Zug :rotflmao1:

 

[BmoreMoney]

I know two more that are paid and signed up and now can't attend with a LEGITIMATE reason. (no I won't name their names). So that is another $400 into Zuglan's pocket. Maybe it is part of the business plan to c0ver the added money and walk away with a profit.

Lol, you say that as if profit is a bad thing lol. There should be profit, there needs to be profit. Profit is why the casino is there in the first place to even hold tourney, Diamond makes money - hence why theyre tables for the players to play on, and on and on. I seriously doubt dropouts are part of Zuglans business plan lol. On top of that; being that apparently he is extremely UP FRONT with the policies about refunds so what even if it were? I already explained earlier why it is not good to be able to transfer a spot, so that's already been explained well. Many folks are talking about " professional " and what not. Well maybe theres not a lot of folks here that are from the business world but being professional is when making a contract " as in signing up for a spot in the tourney - mind you this is not your $5 Friday night tourney at your local hole in the wall bar " you honor your end of the contract OR they're penalties to you for not doing so. In this case it's your entry fee - really not a big deal.

 

[cardiac kid]

Not issuing a refund AND then filling the spot to another paying customer is not professional (since professional was the key word in your post).

Steve,

Having played in well over 100 Joss events over the years, including Turning Stone, it was the single best run event I attended all year long. Ever notice some events charge significantly more for late or same day entries? Why should Mike have byes on the board when he has a waiting list of players who wish to play. As soon as he calls a name at the players meeting and that person is not in attendance and can not be reached, he fills the spot from those present. This is a professionally run event each and every time. Realize it is a long trip from your area but you should plan to play there once. Once you see the venue and how it's run, you might change your opinion.

Lyn

 

[iusedtoberich]

After 10 years of watching Turning Stone Classics, I finally played in one last winter. When I approached Mike the previous summer to sign up, before he even accepted the cash, he explained the no refunds, no exceptions policy.

I agreed 100% and signed up. one thing that Mike's Turning Stone Classic tournaments are is professional. When you play, your name is displayed on a printed marquee sign placed on the table light. It's the most professional environment and fills everyone with pride to either play or watch because it's such a great example of where the sport of pool can be of everyone approached it like a professional.

That being said, here is some information from behind the scenes that some might want to know regarding Mike and the turning stone classic:

- This "no refund" policy has been in place from early on because players were taking advantage of the system and the popularity of the tournament. one example is a player raffling of his spot to the highest bidder and not just making extra money on the side, but screwing over the players patiently sitting on the waiting list.

- The casino grants a block of rooms at a lower price for players which is generous considering they can sell these rooms at a higher price very easily. This block of rooms is usually filled before the tournament. If a player cancels, the room either goes back to higher price or goes unfilled. Not only does this look bad on Mike who shows the casino he can bring in players and business but the next player on the waiting list might have wanted that room and would've flown in with it reserved at a lower price.

- If a player sells their spot, and a mystery player shows up the day before the tournament, this causes confusion and not very professional. That being said, there are names on a waiting list and those folks should be selected next, not the person who knows someone who already paid and doesn't want to go.

Those are some reasons for the policy, there are many more.

I understand there are some people that had to cancel this tournament and they have disagreements. A professional pool tournament should have rules that apply to everyone. I do know of one pro that had to cancel...

Darren Appleton is on the poster and complications arose where he couldn't leave England to play in this upcoming Turning Stone Classic. He not only didn't ask for the $200 back, but he offered to pay a penalty fee if there was one (which there isn't) because that's how he is and how he plays...Very professional.

Finally, for those wondering where the extra money goes, it goes towards the expense to pay Diamond for the delivery and use of the tables in the tournament.

One cannot be ripped off if they enter into an agreement after being explained the rules of that agreement beforehand. If that is one thing that anyone who has played in a turning stone classic knows is the "no refunds, no exceptions" policy, from a nobody like myself to a world champion like Darren Appleton...everyone is given a shot with the same rules.

Thanks for sharing another side of the no-refund policy. After reading this, I can see Zuglan's side, and I kind of like it