dan b
what do you mean "table score"
what do you mean "table score"
are these cushions dead?
- Thread starter icemanfred
- Start date
Thanks for posting that earlier video, I always suspected my rails played stiff...I can only get 4 table lengths on the up and down, and barely 7 on the try for 9.
I have to admit RKC is right. I have kleber cushions and they need to be warm (like a heated 3 cushion table) to get the right speed. In the winter my basement is cold and the rubber is pretty stiff.
RKC told me a while ago that kleber was not good for pool. After 3 years, I stand corrected. He was right.
I thought this was interesting. since there has been some question as to the culprit i.e dead cushions or cushion height.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hSwG-FVrf8&t=132s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hSwG-FVrf8&t=132s
Ok Cinderella, just don't expect that pumkin to turn into a pool table until the clock strikes midnight, and the bet is arm wrestling :thumbup:
stupid questions.... arent the cushions already glued to the rails from the manufacturer?
this is not something the mechanic does on an install right?
also wondering if I have the correct profile on these rails.
or if they were applied correctly. I can see a line through the felt on top and feel a transition on the bottom
this is not something the mechanic does on an install right?
also wondering if I have the correct profile on these rails.
or if they were applied correctly. I can see a line through the felt on top and feel a transition on the bottom
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icemanfred
Several things I'm seeing in your videos.
Rail nose is a little too high BUT you should still get better rebound than you're getting. Possible someone switched old rails for your newer ones. The rail rebound looks a little stiff, this is usual of cheaper tables. You can test with your fingers by squeezing the rail nose. It should sink in and feel rubbery. Hard rail rubber = poor rebound.
Slamming the ball onto the 1st rail will raise the nose and the ball will be momentarily "trapped" which slows down the ball dramatically. As you notice the 2nd & 3rd rail bounce is nearing normal.
Your photo of underside, your rails are made of pressed sawdust, of rather POOR quality I must say.
I've worked in cabinet shops, what you have is NOT solid by ANY means. We use it primarily as filler. That is another piece of the puzzle where you're getting poor rebound, it's not solid like oak or maple.
The noise is USUALLY from loose rails BUT you say they're tight. OK, so now you'll have to raise the rails to see if the cloth was stapled correctly (as others said, cloth relief). 1 or 2 layers of cloth raising the rail will act as a shock absorber.
Take photos of your work. Before reassembling, we can give more advice.
.
Several things I'm seeing in your videos.
Rail nose is a little too high BUT you should still get better rebound than you're getting. Possible someone switched old rails for your newer ones. The rail rebound looks a little stiff, this is usual of cheaper tables. You can test with your fingers by squeezing the rail nose. It should sink in and feel rubbery. Hard rail rubber = poor rebound.
Slamming the ball onto the 1st rail will raise the nose and the ball will be momentarily "trapped" which slows down the ball dramatically. As you notice the 2nd & 3rd rail bounce is nearing normal.
Your photo of underside, your rails are made of pressed sawdust, of rather POOR quality I must say.
I've worked in cabinet shops, what you have is NOT solid by ANY means. We use it primarily as filler. That is another piece of the puzzle where you're getting poor rebound, it's not solid like oak or maple.
The noise is USUALLY from loose rails BUT you say they're tight. OK, so now you'll have to raise the rails to see if the cloth was stapled correctly (as others said, cloth relief). 1 or 2 layers of cloth raising the rail will act as a shock absorber.
Take photos of your work. Before reassembling, we can give more advice.
.
Several things I'm seeing in your videos.
Rail nose is a little too high BUT you should still get better rebound than you're getting. Possible someone switched old rails for your newer ones. The rail rebound looks a little stiff, this is usual of cheaper tables. You can test with your fingers by squeezing the rail nose. It should sink in and feel rubbery. Hard rail rubber = poor rebound.
Slamming the ball onto the 1st rail will raise the nose and the ball will be momentarily "trapped" which slows down the ball dramatically. As you notice the 2nd & 3rd rail bounce is nearing normal.
Your photo of underside, your rails are made of pressed sawdust, of rather POOR quality I must say.
I've worked in cabinet shops, what you have is NOT solid by ANY means. We use it primarily as filler. That is another piece of the puzzle where you're getting poor rebound, it's not solid like oak or maple.
The noise is USUALLY from loose rails BUT you say they're tight. OK, so now you'll have to raise the rails to see if the cloth was stapled correctly (as others said, cloth relief). 1 or 2 layers of cloth raising the rail will act as a shock absorber.
SPEAKING OF CLOTH... if that blue is your cloth, I hope you didn't pay much for it. It "pills" pretty bad.
PM me, I have suggestion how to improve that cloth as it sits.
Take photos of your work. Before reassembling, we can give more advice.
BTW: I had a near new SEARS $50 table and REworked it so it performed reasonably well. Definitely better than your videos show.
.
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Until he takes an end rail off and takes pictures so i can see what he sees, i don't know what else to sugest.
We're doing our best... can't ask for much more.
Besides, it's FREE. :wink:
I think I summed up his problem(s).
Had a table like his, tho that SEARS table had a chipboard slate. I replaced it with best quality chipboard in 2 layers. Sealed edges & surfaces to slow moisture intrusion.
It actually played quite well, I must say.
For the record, I had THREE 8 ft. tables in my homes basement. American Heritage, Kasson & that (free) Sears.
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Hi thanks for the response.
the particle board you are seeing is the backing material for the slate.
the rail beneath that should be solid wood.
I didnt want to take a rail off myself. may never get if back on correctly.
alittle advice here and maybe I can do this on the weekend.
the particle board you are seeing is the backing material for the slate.
the rail beneath that should be solid wood.
I didnt want to take a rail off myself. may never get if back on correctly.
alittle advice here and maybe I can do this on the weekend.
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so for the record the proper rail height should be between 62.5 and 64.5% of the ball at 2.25"
would be between 1.4" and 1.45"
if I am calculating this correctly , I am looking at about a variance of about 7/64 or 2.6 mm
does that sound correct
would be between 1.4" and 1.45"
if I am calculating this correctly , I am looking at about a variance of about 7/64 or 2.6 mm
does that sound correct
btw thie line I see through the cloth seems to be between the rubber and the wood (not feather stip). so I thought the rubber cushions were glued on to high
First rail removal seems difficult, thereafter piece of cake. First time will take you several hours, thereafter 2 tops.
About the only thing you can mess up is stripping out screws/bolts.
Remove aprons then unbolt corner & side pockets, then rails.
Do it slow, pictures if needed for your reassembly references.
Just repeating, we're here for help.
OH, the cushion to wood line.
I seen tables like that new, looks bad still plays well. But your point can be valid, the nose can be too high. Unless you're experienced at assembly, have a shop to it. Its about $75 IF I remember, plus rubber.
I don't think he feels confident to do it himself.
Hire a reputable table mechanic and nonchalantly watch him take it apart. It will be easy after you see him do it.
Hire a reputable table mechanic and nonchalantly watch him take it apart. It will be easy after you see him do it.
Ya, caught that the moment you posted this.
I knew I should have waited a day to respond to that, just got out of round 1 of surgery.
***I'm not a mechanic***
That said, I still don't think anything is wrong with your table. You have a home model table. Its never going to be as lively as a commercial table. The manufacturers make their commercial tables heavier, and put the better cushions on them. This makes the ball go further.
The cushion nose height: It was probably designed at that specific height from the factory. Who knows why? Maybe at a lower height, the balls flew in the air when they contacted the cushion. If you are measuring the same cushion height all the way around the table, then it must be that way on purpose, and not some sort of manufacturing error. The manufacturer probably has some sort of fixture to install the cushions consistently. If the cushion is flush to the wood rail, and the nose of the cushion is not wavy, then you know the cushion is in the right place (as designed by the manufacturer). Those WPA specs are all over the place. Some tables follow them, some don't.
The installation: What could have been messed up by the installers? Probably the only thing is if they stapled the rail cloth outside of the cloth relief area. That would raise your cushions a bit, probably slightly more than the thickness of the cloth. If they really did that, then that means the installation company was incompetent. That is certainly possible. Maybe call them up and ask them that question. If they don't know what you are talking about, I suppose its possible. If they say something right away like "of course we always staple the cloth in the cloth relief area, and trim the excess so its also inside the relief area", then they probably are not incompetent.
The cushion rubber: Did the rubber dry up and go bad? The table is only a few months old, so that is highly unlikely. Usually that takes years on home model tables, and decades (or never) on commercial tables. Is the bounce the same as when the table was installed? If so, then for sure they did not dry up and go bad.
The cushion rubber glue: Did the cushion rubber glue fail, and you have a loose cushion? Well, if the bounce is consistent across the whole table, then no, that can't be the cause.
Rail bolts: Did the rail bolts loosen up? Unless they all loosened up the exact same amount and at the same time, you will have some rails that bounce better than others if the rail bolts loosened. If they are all bouncing the same way, then its very likely they are all still tight.
I just can't see you going through hoops and taking your table apart for a problem that is probably a non-problem.
If you are truly unsatisfied, have the installers come back out to check out the table. They probably have a warranty, so it will be free for them to just come and check it. Or, go to your local "players" pool hall, ask the owner who does their tables, and ask that mechanic to come out to take a look at your table.
From the start of this thread, I didn't think your table had a problem for a home-model table.
This is all my opinion only, and you know what that is worth
And like I said at the very top, I'm not a mechanic.
That said, I still don't think anything is wrong with your table. You have a home model table. Its never going to be as lively as a commercial table. The manufacturers make their commercial tables heavier, and put the better cushions on them. This makes the ball go further.
The cushion nose height: It was probably designed at that specific height from the factory. Who knows why? Maybe at a lower height, the balls flew in the air when they contacted the cushion. If you are measuring the same cushion height all the way around the table, then it must be that way on purpose, and not some sort of manufacturing error. The manufacturer probably has some sort of fixture to install the cushions consistently. If the cushion is flush to the wood rail, and the nose of the cushion is not wavy, then you know the cushion is in the right place (as designed by the manufacturer). Those WPA specs are all over the place. Some tables follow them, some don't.
The installation: What could have been messed up by the installers? Probably the only thing is if they stapled the rail cloth outside of the cloth relief area. That would raise your cushions a bit, probably slightly more than the thickness of the cloth. If they really did that, then that means the installation company was incompetent. That is certainly possible. Maybe call them up and ask them that question. If they don't know what you are talking about, I suppose its possible. If they say something right away like "of course we always staple the cloth in the cloth relief area, and trim the excess so its also inside the relief area", then they probably are not incompetent.
The cushion rubber: Did the rubber dry up and go bad? The table is only a few months old, so that is highly unlikely. Usually that takes years on home model tables, and decades (or never) on commercial tables. Is the bounce the same as when the table was installed? If so, then for sure they did not dry up and go bad.
The cushion rubber glue: Did the cushion rubber glue fail, and you have a loose cushion? Well, if the bounce is consistent across the whole table, then no, that can't be the cause.
Rail bolts: Did the rail bolts loosen up? Unless they all loosened up the exact same amount and at the same time, you will have some rails that bounce better than others if the rail bolts loosened. If they are all bouncing the same way, then its very likely they are all still tight.
I just can't see you going through hoops and taking your table apart for a problem that is probably a non-problem.
If you are truly unsatisfied, have the installers come back out to check out the table. They probably have a warranty, so it will be free for them to just come and check it. Or, go to your local "players" pool hall, ask the owner who does their tables, and ask that mechanic to come out to take a look at your table.
From the start of this thread, I didn't think your table had a problem for a home-model table.
This is all my opinion only, and you know what that is worth
And like I said at the very top, I'm not a mechanic.
The OP asked for my table measurements. Here they are:
Setup to measure wood rail thickness
Wood rail thickness is 1 3/4"
Cushion nose height is between 1 3/8" and 1 7/16"
On this picture with a different ruler that is brighter and shows up better, it kind of looks like the cushion nose is higher. That is because of the parallax from the camera angle. You really have to get your head on the table and your eyeballs straight across from the numbers to read the ruler accurately. I bring this up, because that might be what you were seeing with your tape measure. Also, the front of a carpenter's tape measure can easily be off by 1/16" of an inch. You really need a combination square (or better yet a machinist's height gage, ha ha) to take accurate measurements.
Setup to measure wood rail thickness
Wood rail thickness is 1 3/4"
Cushion nose height is between 1 3/8" and 1 7/16"
On this picture with a different ruler that is brighter and shows up better, it kind of looks like the cushion nose is higher. That is because of the parallax from the camera angle. You really have to get your head on the table and your eyeballs straight across from the numbers to read the ruler accurately. I bring this up, because that might be what you were seeing with your tape measure. Also, the front of a carpenter's tape measure can easily be off by 1/16" of an inch. You really need a combination square (or better yet a machinist's height gage, ha ha) to take accurate measurements.
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